YOE BOROUGH PG. 1
150 NORTH MAPLE STREET
YOE, PA 17313
The regular monthly meeting of Yoe Borough Council was held on October 7, 2008 at the Yoe Borough Municipal Building, 150 North Maple Street, Yoe, PA. The
meeting was called to order by Council President Sam Snyder at 7:01PM with the
Pledge of Allegiance.
Council Members in Attendance: Sam Snyder
Others in attendance: Sandy Sterner, Secretary-Treasurer
Dana Shearer, Maintenance
John Sanford, Mayor
Connie Crull, Tax Collector
Pete Solymos, Solicitor
Jason Reichard, Engineer
Ted Hake, Yoe Ambulance
Bruce and Polly Bailey, 69 E. Penna. Avenue
Ken and Denise Newcomer, 61 E. Penna. Avenu
Councilman Snyder asked did everyone have an opportunity to read over the minutes from the prior meeting, any additions or corrections? Councilman Manns said on Page
33,where it states via motion that our attorney to go back to our carrier’s attorney as discussed in executive session, the motion was seconded. I myself and Tom were opposed to the motion. Councilman Snyder asked any other additions or corrections?
Councilman Allar said on Page 7 about 2/3 of the way down, talking about the LGCPA.
Local governments with populations of 25 or less. I think that’s 2500. And then the
next line it says it can be used for dredging, it can not be used for dredging, it can be
used for engineer planning and buying of the land, it can not be used for dredging.
Correct me that population figure is 12,000. Councilman Snyder asked any other
additions or corrections? A motion was made to accept the minutes with noted corrections by Councilman Allar. The motion was seconded by Councilman Crull.
All in favor. Councilman Snyder said minutes accepted.
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Yoe Councilman Snyder said the first one we have on the agenda is
Ambu- Mr. Hake. Mr. Hake said good evening Borough Council, Mayor
lance Sanford and President Snyder. A few things for me to address tonight.
Back when I gave my year end report I told you for the first time in
a long time we were having an audit for the year 2007. That’s now
available and I have copies available for council and also have a more
formalized borough copy to remain in the borough office for you as
well. I’m going to summarize this in about three minutes. I don’t think
you want the long version of the audit. First and foremost no fraud is
detected. That’s the most important thing. Secondly in their opinion,
the financial statement fairly represents Yoe Fire Company Ambulance
Services through December 31, 2007. Did not identify major accounting
decencies. At the end of fiscal year December 31, 2007 we had $875,000.00
in assests. Total revenue for 2007 were $1,234, 666.00. I think we talked
about this when I gave my unaudited balance. We received a windfall from
deceased chicken farmer from Windsor Township that left us 7 ½ % of his
estate as well as Red Lion Ambulance. So while our general public donations
are $10,000.00 they were $177,000.00 in 2007. So that has been placed in
a reserve account, to account for rainy days for the future. Presently we have
enough in reserve to operate for six months without the funding pipeline being
cut off. Total revenue is $1,234, 666.00. Total expenses were $975,797.00.
Net assets on December 31st were $685,669.00. Cash on hand was $447,037.00.
They do note that at the end of the year we had $255,026.00 of unincurred
cash balances. Its no longer the case for two reasons, you are aware that
the bailout included a change in the FDIC but additionally if you look at the
long term debt. We had two vehicle loans and we had our share of the building
loan. With the decline in the interest rate, we had a CD come due and we paid
off our portion of the building. The CD rate was about 3% when the building
loan was about 7% so. And we were concerned that some of our money was
not insured at that point. None the less, we have taken on a third vehicle loan,
we don’t have the building loan anymore. The detail breakdown is on the
last page. I’m available by phone or email if there are any questions. With
budget this year being over a million dollars, we’ll stay above a million dollars,
we’re continue to use the auditors every year. I’ll leave the formal bound copy
to place in the library. The second reason I’m here, is we recently got the
contract but its been almost three years already. The EMS contract expires on
December 31st of this year. We’re living under a little bit different times now.
Finally the Commonwealth has put it in, into ambulance service. The governor
signed a pretty simple law on March 17th of this year, the roles are identical for
1st and second class townships. It basically says, that we’ll meet with you or
you’ll meet with us to discuss the needs of the municipality for fire and
emergency medical. It says that you will provide for those services. It says
that we will justify what we do with the money that you give us to provide
those services. And that’s another reason we are giving you the audit. Apparently,
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other places, that were providing emergency services weren’t so free as to
provide information. I’ll leave a copy of that for Sandy. Its not a very
exciting act. Part of the proposal is to renew the EMS contract for five
years with no increases during that time. The Borough of Yoe, this year,
paid $4.94 per capita for emergency ambulance service. Compared to
$4.77 for Windsor Township, $2.43 for Dallastown Borough, who is continuing
to work to increase that, and $1.98 for York Township. Typically the more
call volume we respond to, the less we are paid. I’ve look at it many times in
the past, they’re not paying us to respond to those calls, the calls themselves.
You are paying for that one hour where there are no calls. Additionally since
your last contract negotiation, we’ve taken on additional personnel services for
the borough which takes time for myself and the part time bookkeeper. We never
opted to charge a separate administrative fee from the staff. I always felt its
included. On the staffing, its been smooth on our end, happy the way its worked
out. Sandy and I communicate often, and you paid your bill quickly. The Board
Directors like that and thank you for that. And we like having Dana around. I do
have copies of the agreement, you have a couple months here. I’ll leave a copy
for everyone. Again the terms are two payments as they were before, one by
end of June and one by the end of December in the amount of $2500.00 for a total
of $5000.00. Again I am not proposing any increases to the Borough of Yoe.
Its not the case in other municipalities. Again you are already up there per
per capita compared with the others. You will call when we transitioned to the
paramedic level of service, you signed an addendum. The addendum is now
worded into the contract, we put a new line at the bottom of the contract. The
first part is that you acknowledge that we are a regional service, and we do have
to go wherever we are dispatched. The contract never said you serve other
municipalities. It says we’re not only here for the Borough of Yoe, we do serve
other municipalities on a given day. If there any questions on the top of your
head I can answer now. I will more than happy to return back to council next
month. If any questions do come up. Councilman Snyder said at least on my end
I think things have been running smoothly. Of course we’ll have our solicitor take
a quick look over this. I’m sure we’ll have it signed before the end of the year.
The only thing I did want to point out, not so much a question you don’t need to
answer it. I saw where your revenues have really jumped from your financial
statement up to that 1. 2 million. And when ours had jumped here because of our
tax rate increase the other year. Just keep in mind whomever that does your
books, has adequate bonding and protection there. A lot of times you forget to
raise up your bonding and check where its at and that may not be keeping pace
as to where you are at right now. Mr. Hake said I can address that. As it is,
the auditors did send a management letter to look at our internal controls. Our
internal process, they gave us some pointers, involving our part time bookkeeper,
involving her, involving some cross checking for our deposit slips. So they
developed some procedures there. Our current coverage is $1,000,000.00 per
person for the cash on hand. As you are aware it’s a budget for the whole year.
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At any given time, the cash is not more than a million, so we should be good.
But I’ll double check. We both have the same carrier. Councilman Snyder
said I don’t want it to slip in between the cracks, its something you don’t
think about. Any other questions? Solicitor Solymos said I just have one,
your solicitor, who would I talk to if I had any questions ? Mr. Hake said
we are using Christy Lamotte on Trindle Road in Mechanicsburg. They
are the ones that handled the staff agreement. Solicitor Solymos said they
are up in Cumberland County. Mr. Hake said yes Cumberland County.
Solicitor Solymos said thank you. Mr. Hake said I can come back next
month. The secretary said I can put you on the agenda, don’t forget its
the second Tuesday in November because of election day. Mr. Hake
said thank you for your time.
55 E. Councilman Snyder said we don’t have any other visitors on the agenda,
Penna. but is there anyone that would like to be recognized? I’m Bruce Bailey
Ave. and my wife Polly and Ken Newcomer and Denise Newcomer. We live
Con- on E. Pennsylvania Avenue at 69 and 61. Concerns over 55. Which has
cern been a problem, a problem apartment building and now we heard someone
else bought it and is going to turn it into a Rooms for Rent. Mr. Newcomer
said we were initially told by the tenants that moved out, that someone had
bought it, they were going to convert back to a single family home and then
someone showed up and started to do work on the house. And I spoke to
the actual owner that’s doing work on the house, he told me, to keep it
as two units, apartment building. And then the next day, I was speaking to
one of the guys that was helping with his work and he said, he was in there
late at night putting up dividers up in rooms. Dividers for what? He said
he plans on renting it, room by room, shared bathroom on the first and
second floor. Mrs. Newcomer said including the attic. I called Dan
Shaw. And he had told me, he didn’t think that was going to be happening.
And if he known about it, he said there were no permits issued. He wasn’t
sure about that, he was going look into it and investigate the property. And
it seems right after I spoke with him, all of a sudden they weren’t doing
any work during the day, everything was being done between the hours
of 7 and four o’clock in the morning. So it really made me suspicious,
when I called him again, I wasn’t able to get ahold of him. And I don’t
think he found out any information at that point. Mr. Bailey said and
he has since dumped how many dump truck loads of stone in the back
yard and converted the whole back yard into parking. Mr. Newcomer
said cut down a decent tree. Like I said he divided off into two rooms.
Mr. Bailey asked is that in zoning to have rooms to rent? Councilman
Snyder said we do allow for boarding houses. However you have to
get a special exception or variance to put one in. Evidently Dan Shaw
would be the person you would have to go to, to get those special
exceptions and variances. Mrs. Newcomer said he said, he would have
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to go for a hearing and he said he absolutely none has been applied.
Councilman Snyder said that’s not saying that this person hasn’t
been doing this outside the scope of the law, and of what’s legal.
Evidently he is dumping stone in there. Mr. Newcomer said he
graded the back yard into a parking area. There is a garage back
there. I also spoke to another person that came out after he
graded the yard, some sort of inspector came out and said had
to redo it because it was a 100% of the yard covered. And now its
75%. That person was some sort of inspector that was out there.
If it’s a boarding house, basically you have people coming in
renting week to week, you don’t know who they are. We are
a kind of a secluded neighborhood. I’m kind of new to the area but
we are home owners. I have a daughter, we don’t know. Mr. Bailey
said yes, if its renting six or eight rooms other than a single house.
It could be six to eight to ten cars. If there is a boarding house on that
street, since they haven’t taken the proper procedures. Mrs. Newcomer
said that house before, that’s always been a problem. Mr. Bailey said
ever since its gone from a single family home to apartments, its nothing
been trouble, since five years ago, and now it can only get worse. Mr.
Shearer said to address the concerns about the parking. The inspectors
that were out, were actually Dan and myself. He called me when he
was going to call Mr. Steve Foote, the owner of the property. We went
out and Dan informed him that he had to remove a portion of the stone.
He had basically four parking areas that they are required to have with
the two units. You will remember back with Dick, they had to tear
the garage down because originally that was a fly by night two unit
and they had to go back and get another EDU and tear the garage
down for four parking spots. So Mr. Foote wanted to improve those
parking spots, Dan, we were out on sight. He actually laid out for him
the four spots. And since that time Mr. Foote has removed that
stone that Dan wanted him to take out and reseed with grass. While
we were there that day, we entered in conversation about what is
going on inside. He did allow us to go in and we walked through
the units to see what is going on. He is putting up some interior
walls, reducing the size of some of the rooms. According to
Code Administrators, there none low bearing walls and does not
require a permit to put those walls up. As far as the attic space,
we have been advised by Code Administrators, that he will
have to get a certified letter to the borough stating that, that will
not become habitable space. He’s been informed that he would
have to pull permits and bring it up to code for the attic space to
be habitable. Even though he has put the dry wall, he has limited
that room to storage only. In the process I’ve been working with
him as far as, the occupancy limits. Its still going to be to my
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knowledge a two unit apartment. And we’ve gone over what he
needs as far as his occupancy, for that. Actually some of the things
that we brought up as concerns, he has since advised, he’s corrected,
and I’m suppose to meet with him at one o’clock tomorrow to
do the official inspection on the two unit rental. The secretary said
today we received a tenant registration report with the first tenant.
We did send him the required tenant change form and one has a name
of a person that will be living in it. The other one is not rented out
yet. Mr. Newcomer said I met Steve, he seems like a really nice guy.
We were just concerned. Mrs. Newcomer said he told Ken directly,
we’re going to leave it a two unit rental. When I first heard it, I was
excited. When his workers told us the next day, no that’s not what
he’s planning on doing, we are building room dividers so he can
rent it out by the room. That’s why I worried about it. Mr. Shearer
said if see people who aren’t permanent, call Sandy and leave a message,
me and Dan can address that. The secretary said he also signed that
paper that stated he is only going to be renting it for a two unit dwelling.
Correct? Mr. Shearer said that is what he advised, he is falling under the
previous owner’s license for the year. Councilman Snyder said one
good thing, I mean it sounds as if right now we can’t do a whole lot.
Cause. We are investigating. Mr. Newcomer said we just wanted to
make sure, we weren’t sure how it went from his office. Mr. Bailey
asked what did it look like inside, with all those new walls that they
put up? Mr. Shearer said the rooms in there are fairly large. The size
of the rooms, the property maintenance limits the number of people by
the size of the rooms. He was informed of how many people he can
put in. The bottom one, both of them would allow four people. Four
people each. The bottom one would be two bedrooms, the top one
would be three bedrooms. The upstairs, two of the bedrooms are only
sized for one person. So. But each one, would be basically, a two
unit apartment with four people in each one. Mr. Newcomer said I
recall from a few years ago when I lived in Spring Garden Township,
I ran into, where they had rules, that you can have two families per
unit or something like that, do you have anything like that here as
far? Mr. Shearer said you mean interrelated? I don’t know if that’s.
Councilman Snyder said I’m not sure. Mr. Shearer said its not
part of the property maintenance code, that they have to be related.
Solicitor Solymos said it may be part of the zoning ordinance, I
commend you get a zoning ordinance and keep it on hand. That would
answer your questions. Then just keep an eye on this situation. Mrs.
Newcomer said we became suspicious because they had a tenant that
lived on the first floor that move out. They would good tenants, they
were quiet, they paid their bills, they didn’t bother with anything.
That’s why when they said they said, why would they get rid of good
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tenants. Especially where the second floor sat vacant for many months,
there was a many of people that came and looked at it, they walked in
and walked out. If you have an apartment and you have a nice people,
good tenants. Mr. Bailey asked did he say why he put those additional
walls up there? Mr. Shearer said he really didn’t go into why he did
it. Councilman Snyder said we’ll keep our eyes on it, the right people
know about it. Cause one nice thing about it being a rental property,
Dana does have the right, he has to go in every two years to inspect.
And he go in to inspect based on complaints, complaints can be concerned
citizens that think there may be something. That’s the nice thing. He may
try to get away with something, I’m not saying he is. But if something
does go on that we’re not aware about, we’ll be able to keep a handle on
it. Mr. Bailey asked is there one person we should call in particular if
we see suspicious activity. Councilman Snyder said between Dana,
do you have his number. Dan Shaw is our zoning officer, he would take
care of the zoning issues. As far as it being a rental property, a rental
inspector is Dana Shearer. Between the two of them. There’s a fine line
that crosses from being a rental issue and being a zoning issue and violating
zoning. The secretary said and if worse comes to worse, you can always call
me, because I forwarded the information to them so they could get together.
I’ll gladly help, if you can’t get anyone to answer your questions, I’ll try
to steer you in the right direction. Mr. Shearer said the three of us communicate
on issues, I work out of here and Dan is from Red Lion. He is down here
regular. We’re in contact with him. If there is follow up. we’ll be happy to
get together. Mr. Bailey said this has been nothing but trouble since it became
an apartment from a single family home. Its been nothing but trouble, now
we’re worried its going to get worse. Councilman Allar said when you say
trouble can you be more specific? Mrs. Newcomer said disturbances. We
were there for a certain period. Very inconsiderate, reckless driving on a
street that there at least ten kids running around the street every single
day. Mr. Bailey said cops there, parking issues. Councilman Allar said we
do have a noise ordinance. At what time? So we can be after them. Mr.
Bailey said we have a pretty nice neighborhood and this is one of the
sore spots. We are trying to keep tabs on it. It seems like its going in
the wrong direction. Councilman Noll asked with those walls, is there
electrical in there? Mr. Shearer said I thought Cod Administrators had
been on it, there non low bearing. Mr. Bailey said we still have a suspicion.
Mrs. Newcomer said its happening, I go to bed at midnight. All their lights
are on, and there is guy laughing. So that’s give me this suspicious feeling,
when all of sudden the work that was going on during the day, is going
on at 11 o’clock at night. Mr. Bailey said and when one of the workers said
he’s making it a boarding house. Councilman Snyder said okay, keeps us
informed on it and we’ll keep our eye on it as well. Mr. Bailey said thank
you for your time Councilman Snyder asked any other visitors that would
Visitors(cont.) Page 8
like to be recognized?
Recess of Regular meeting at 7:35PM
A motion was made by Councilman Noll to recess the regular meeting at
7:35PM to open up a public meeting to discuss Ordinance 2008-02. The motion was seconded by Councilman Myers. All in favor.
Public Hearing for Ordinance 2008-02
Councilman Snyder said I’d like to call this public hearing to order. To discuss Ordinance
2008-02. Which of course is the ordinance amending Yoe Borough Zoning Ordinance.
Substituting new sections 307 of the zoning ordinance for an existing section. providing
therein for the establishments of buffers and screens. As well as amending section 607.4
and 626.4 of Yoe Borough Zoning Ordinance to establish new criteria for distances
between multi family dwelling groups and cluster developments. Any questions? Let
the record reflect we did receive comments back from York County Planning. They
commended us for continuing to work with them in straightening out all these issues.
Of course at the very end, they did recommend, they could not recommend to approve
them. I think they’re exact words were, they could not recommend the amendments for
enactment. So, questions comments. Solicitor Solymos said its all now before you, in
a proper manner, you have the official comments. As you well know, the planning
commission comments are recommendations which you can be guided by but you
do not have to accept. However you can accept them or ignore them. A motion was
made by Councilman Crull to adopt the ordinance as presented. The recommendations
are on file. The motion was seconded by Councilman Noll. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said so be it ordained.
Closing of the Public Hearing and Reconvening Regular Meeting.
Councilman Noll made a motion to close the public hearing and recovening the meeting
at 7:39PM. The motion was seconded by Councilman Howett. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said hearing is closed and the regular meeting is reconvened.
Councilman Noll said Sam, before you go on I just wanted to find out, with walls in
that house, did Dan make that decision or do you know for a fact that he talked
to Code Administrators, cause I find that, it doesn’t matter if its low bearing or
not, dry wall. I can’t believe that they wouldn’t have done inspections. Mr. Shearer
said from what I understand from him, he talked to Code Adminstrators. There not
low bearing walls. Councilman Snyder said for the record Seth, I have no clue what
is going on with this UCC. In respect to that, I know across the street from me, I think
the address was 167, the old Tome property, was being gutted out, renovated, it was
being flipped by the guy that owns Roma’s Pizza. I saw bathtubs, radiators, they closed
in windows, they closed in a doorway. They were doing all sorts of renovations. And we
must have had Codes up there three, four times and they all said they do not need
permit for this. Yeah, So. Councilman Noll asked do you mind if I call Code
Adminstrators and talk to Lefever and Jason. That’s not. Councilman Snyder
said I would have thought, that I saw up in Red Lion that they had a permit
folder there for remodeling a kitchen. And I’m seeing radiators and tubs coming
out and they knew about it. Councilman Noll said there are electrical inspections,
there’s plumbing. We have to make sure we have the proper. Councilman Snyder
said they closed up a front door and a window. They said. Councilman Noll said
that’s not right, you’re missing out on one, income and two, especially with
rentals its safety. Councilman Allar said we don’t get any money. Councilman
Snyder said we don’t get any money. Councilman Noll said we don’t get any
money for permits? Councilman Snyder said nope. Solicitor Solymos said
but your concern is still legitimate. Councilman Noll said no other municipality.
Councilman Snyder said I don’t understand this UCC. The secretary said Kevin
Hertzog is our inspector for this area and Jason Stevens is his boss. Councilman
Noll said I know Jason very well. Any other municipality wouldn’t allow a two
by four without a permit. The secretary said I remember the situation that Sam is
talking about, and I called twice and I think he called once. Councilman Myers asked
and they called back? Councilman Snyder said yeah, they called back and they
actually went up and said based on the work that he is doing. The secretary said I had
that John Lefever down here and he said that he didn’t need a permit. Councilman
Myers said when you are talking to him, I’m kind of curious, do they call back our
taxpayers, their customers, do they call them back in a reasonable time. The only
reason I say that cause I had a bad experience, as a matter of fact when I did call
the guy I called five times and never got a call back. I even questioned it the third
time, I questioned the lady, I said you know, do you do this to Yoe Borough
residents? She said, we always call back. I never got a call. Councilman Noll said
I do a lot of work with Code Administrators and I never had a problem as far as
call backs. I can’t believe they don’t want to give permits. Solicitor Solymos
said if you know Jason, you’re the guy to call. Councilman Noll said I want
to sit down and have him show me in the book where’s its not required. Truly
want to get our municipality on the right track. Councilman Snyder said at least
four times, Sandy called twice for me, I called twice. And they actually came
out three times and said the work didn’t require a permit. And I said especially
with taking out a front door. Councilman Noll said a front door, radiators,
electrical, there had to be. Councilman Snyder said I don’t know. Councilman
Noll said I’ll find out.
Solicitor Solymos said I have a couple of things that I’d like to go into
executive session with you. But before we go into that, I have nothing new
to report. Nothing substantial, a couple of things in executive session. Last
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 10
month we had ton of things.
Tweedy Solicitor Solymos said with regard to the Tweedy property, a
Property letter has been sent to the bank there asking them to take care
of that situation.
Talked Solicitor Solymos said I talked to Mike Craley on three items.
To Mike And got two back from Mike, 171 S. Main, the back up of
Craley the sewer. Talked to Mike about the broken sewer lateral. I
also spoke to him about the Tweedy property and the sewer
authority wants us to move on the Tweedy property. They
are taking care of the other two properties. I think they’ve
been resolved, if there is problem I haven’t heard further from
Mike. Mrs. Crull said I talked to Jan, and the sewer authority
isn’t going back to bill them. Solicitor Solymos said Mike and
I talked about that. They’re not going after them.
Comcast Solicitor Solymos said with regard to Comcast. I sent up
Tom’s request, I sent the Comcast information to Senator
Waugh’s office on September 12, 2008. For their review
and comment. I got some brief information back about
a week ago, which really didn’t tell me anything from a
legal standpoint, where we are. I think that Sam can bring
you more up to date. Sam did confirmed with Comcast and
confirmed it in writing that this has nothing to do with the
licensing fee, it just has to do with the charges that they
impose for regular cable to the user, you and I. I what I find
most interesting, I talked to a couple of other solicitors in
municipalities that are involved and talked to, I haven’t
heard that anybody seems to be concerned. The Borough’s
Association doesn’t seem to concerned. It appears to me
that probably, the representation made to Sam, based on
his inquiries are accurate. This is not a play to eliminate
franchise fees, otherwise I think the Borough’s Association,
Second Class Township Association would be up in arms.
Bowser Solicitor Solymos said I sent the letter to Todd Bowser about
Letter his outstanding fees. The letter was returned, addressee unknown,
return to sender. I thought we maybe typed the wrong address but
I checked our file. We have the same address that you sent out and
it was picked up. I don’t know what is going on. But if we have
other addresses, business addresses. I’ll send the letter back out.
The secretary said I’ll look again tomorrow. I’ll look at my old
paperwork. Councilman Myers asked what do you do if it
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 11
comes back again? Solicitor Solymos said I’ll have a constable
serve it on him, there’s no way, won’t have it returned by a
constabile. If he doesn’t pay, we can consider, you can consider
a lien on the property. Councilman Snyder said he doesn’t own
the property anymore. Solicitor Solymos said let’s hope we
get those letters out. Councilman Noll asked in our ordinances,
do we have any language for a case like this because its going
to cost us a lot of money to go after him. Fees for having to
have pin him down to the ground to pay it. Councilman Snyder
said its all regulated by the MPC, the MPC says we are allowed
to charge for subdivision review so our ordinance or resolution,
cause we go by resolution to set Jason’s fees. I’d think that
violation of that goes back to the MPC. Solicitor Solymos said
I also think if we plant a lien, that we can add my fees. Councilman
Noll said if he is ignorant about the whole thing, we could have a
couple hundred bucks in legal fees. Solicitor Solymos said at this
point I’ve only sent one letter. I don’t know how much time you’ve
got, its not heavily involved. Councilman Noll said but if you send
a sheriff or constable out. Solicitor Solymos said our constable charges
$20.00 a shot. We have a constable that is a retired gentleman who
serves when we can’t or they won’t pick up. If we went to the sheriff’s
office and served him a legal document, then the sheriff’s office
gets expensive depending where you go, $150.00. I can just have our
constable do that. If he doesn’t pick it up on the lien, I’m authorized
to post it. Councilman Snyder asked is there anything we can do,
since we are changing these ordinances around anyways, is there anything
we can do to change that resolution through the MPC whatever that
we can hold up approval until we get paid? Or make that a condition of
approval? Solicitor Solymos said I think that’d be a condition of
approval before you file the final plan. The problem is what if you
don’t file the plan, you don’t go forward, you don’t have that plan to
hold hostage. We just had that down in Shrewsbury last week, fine
we approved the plan subject to your fees. If we don’t get our fees.
Councilman Snyder said can we change our fee schedule to have
set up, an up front retainer of $1000.00 and then the fees used up
to that point. Solicitor Solymos said I don’t think you can ask for
advanced payment. Councilman Noll said I know we pay out a lot
of times for engineering and other fees. Solicitor Solymos said
with a municipality I’m not sure what. Councilman Noll said to see
if we can do that. Solicitor Solymos said we don’t even have a
subdivision ordinance. Councilman Noll said under the MPC we
do that at Berwick Township, we have to send in so much retainer
on any project that we do, then when it gets down there, they bill
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 12
us for it. We pay everything up front. Solicitor Solymos said
I’ll double check it. Councilman Noll said we do that in
multiple municipalities. Councilman Snyder said yeah, look
into it and see if there is anyway we can charge. Like we do
for a zoning hearing, we get that $400.00 up front. And technically
if you don’t use it all you are to get a refund but the way zoning
costs and advertising costs, we use it up. But that way if we charge
$1500.00 up front, for just a single family home, at this point I think
at this point Jason fees are like 791 and that was basically a single
family home. So have an upfront fee of $1500.00. Solicitor Solymos
said you’re really protected most of the time, unfortunately if someone
withdraws, then you have a problem. Obviously getting some money
up front would resolve that. Councilman Snyder said yeah so we
charge an upfront $1500.00 retainer. Let’s face with the few lots
we have available here in town, they’re either going to be doing a
subdivision of a single family home or they’re going taking, like the
2 acres up around the park and putting in multiple homes and developers
can afford it. If we can do it.
Resolution Solicitor Solymos said the other item I had was the resolution for the
joint municipal plan, we got a form and I redrafted it. You got it and
that’s been taking care of. Councilman Allar said its in the system and
based on that, the contractors are applying for the state grant.
Reidel Solicitor Solymos said in regard to the Reidel property, I was to stand
Property back while Tom and Seth look into it so you can discuss that later unless
you had some legal questions that involve the Reidel property that may
have come up since our last meeting. Councilman Allar said we can
give you the status but we are going to cover that later in the meeting.
Solicitor Solymos asked you don’t need me for that unless you are
ready to move? Councilman Allar said no not really, not at the present
time. Solicitor Solymos said when you folks are ready, I think you
know your options there. That was basically it for me.
Contract Solicitor Solymos said I have a contract that you gave me Sam for
Milt’s Milt’s Repair Service. I guess it’s a renewal contract. Councilman
Repair Snyder said no, they’re going to be a question coming up. Are
Service you done with your report though? Solicitor Solymos said I need
an executive session to discuss two matters but as to my regular
report I’m done so we want to keep going on regular Solicitor’s stuff. Councilman Snyder said we’ll go on regular Solicitor’s
then. I saw here in here in Maintenance Report. Mr. Shearer
said what we’re asking here Pete, is we were looking into
replacing the signal light, bulbs in the signal lights, with LED
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 13
lights. The price for that project is going to be over $4000.00.
For us, to do that, according to borough code, we would have
to have three quotes. But what Municipal Services and PENN
DOT says,to check our contract with our service provider,
to see if this would be covered under the regular service and
maintenance or whether we need to go through the process of
three quotes. Solicitor Solymos said so you want to check if this
contract you have will cover for putting in for the new lights?
Mr. Shearer said yes, it would actually be an upgrade, there
currently an incandescent bulb and we would like to upgrade to
LED. But to do that, it would be well over $4000.00, its going
to be approximately $5500.00. Solicitor Solymos said so the
question is can you go on the contract or do we have to get
other bids. Councilman Myers said and if we bid and someone
else gets it how does that effect that contract. He may not
want someone else in there. Mr. Shearer said but still, how
does that effect, if someone else comes in to do that work,
how does that effect the current contract we have with him.
Councilman Myers said I know at one time he had the
York Township contract, and they started doing the work
on their own, changing light bulbs. He cancelled the contract
because he was worried about liability. He said, he’s liable
if something happens to the signal light and someone else
is in the box, if someone else did something. The secretary
said the state wants to make sure that the wording of the
contract is the right way, so when they come in to audit
me for issuing that check, that, that was the proper way
to go about it. The state is putting it back into our lap to
make the decision. Mr. Shearer said we need three price
quotes, since we are using liquid fuels. We still need to
do it, no matter about the paperwork, we still need to know
this. Solicitor Solymos said I will call you Dana but I need
to review it. Councilman Snyder said the question becomes,
do we still have to get bids. Councilman Allar said can
this be broken down in pieces. Councilman Snyder said
Pete will review the contract and make the appropriate
cause to whomever, and get back with the decision on what
we can do. Solicitor Solymos said I have the Ambulance
Club one to review also.
Ethics Councilman Snyder said we did get notification back when
? I talked to Pete about Councilman Crull selling the mower
to the municipality. He suggested to contact the State
Ethics Commission. That information was passed back to
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 14
Councilman Crull and he is in the process in contacting
them to get the appropriate answers that he is looking
for. That’s all I have, anyone else have anything?
Executive Session at 8:02PM
A motion was made by Councilman Allar to go into executive
session at 8:02PM. The motion was seconded by Councilman Manns. All
Reconvening the Regular Meeting at 8:24PM
Councilman Snyder said the regular council meeting is reconvened.
Let the record reflect that we discussed legal matters. A motion was made by
Councilman Noll for the solicitor to proceed in the manner of which was discussed
in the executive session. The motion was seconded by Councilman Howett. All
in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried.
SPCA Councilman Snyder said the only other thing I have under Solicitor
Contract and we don’t have answers to them yet. We have new contract with
the SPCA. They want $511.00 for the borough’s contribution because
the Red Lion Animal Rescue went defunct. SPCA now wants a
set amount before we go with them. I have Sandy contacting
Hemler to see if there is anyone else before we even agree to that.
Hemler In the meantime we got Hemler’s contract for 2009, it is identical
Contract to the last year’s last year except for rates going up. But if you
call there was discussion last year with him wanting to carry
weapons and we had an addendum drawn up, added to it, which
basically was U and V. U is a hold harmless clause and V was
they had to put their license on file and wear some kind of uniform
for identification. That was not included with his current contract.
I knew as long as he still had that in, you were going to request.
Sandy is going to check on that when she talks to him about the
SPCA. The secretary said the phone call was made yesterday but
no response. Councilman Snyder said they are pending. Anything
else for the solicitor?
Dam Mr. Reichard said on the dam dredging project, the Yoe Borough
Dredging Dam Dredging project, just a quick update on that. We last month
Project we reported to you that the revised application was sent back up
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 15
for their review. Sent a couple of emails to the coordinator there
and which I haven’t received response yet. I think that is a good
sign that its moving on beyond his and being reviewed. We will
continue to monitor that and get some sort of update. Along with
that we have tentatively set up an on site meeting for the 21st
of October and that’s with DEP Division of Dam Safety. We’re
basically having them come out to determine whether or not we
can complete our project under the current maintenance agreement
on file, that has been established which allows the borough to
routinely do maintenance, which includes removing of sediment,
etc. on those structures. If that does not apply then we would have
to go through a construction permit, which needs to be done to
move that project forward so. Councilman Allar asked what time
is it? Mr. Reichard said I set it at 9:30AM. I did not receive
confirmation from DEP, that’s why its tentative. So hopefully
we can get a couple of things worked out. The really the big
thing is to get DEP to understand what we want to do on this
job. Its going to be an educational experience for all of us. Get
everything on the table to have this happen. Councilman Noll said
for this meeting on the 21st, I’m trying to get a meeting set up with
PENN DOT, if I can get him there that day would that would
be alright? Mr. Reichard asked who are you trying to get? Councilman
Noll said from our district, John Glatfelter. Some issues we want
to iron out. We want to get him involved about the right of way.
Mr. Reichard said we may want to do that separately from this.
Councilman Noll said maybe earlier. Councilman Allar said
maybe Seth can have that meeting before so we know what our
options are, if PENN DOT thinks we need to close out that
particular option. Mr. Reichard asked what are you thinking?
Councilman Noll said basically, we went down to the Reidel
property, this is one of those where we should have the big
white board but. At the creek there, he really doesn’t want us
to have any property on the side of the creek where his business
is, and that’s somewhat understandable. He suggested and he
would be more than willing to deed, sell, do something with
the property so we would have perpetuity on the other side of
creek, which means Springwood. The two biggest problems
that we would have, one we have to make sure that PENN DOT
would allow us to access that, the trucks in and out, the guard
rail comes around very close to the bridge there. Maybe a bigger
problem is, we have to get this sort of out, with the municipal
sewer authority, there is a larger sewer lateral that runs in there.
That running trucks and other things over, may not be the best
idea because its asbestos based pipe. And if we crack that one,
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 16
we’re right next to the stream there. They’d have to go
through remediation and other things, to even work on
the asbestos pipe. So they were a little leery when we
had the York Township meeting, and I have some other
things to discuss later. But that was one of the key issues.
So we are going to try to see if we can access and if
we can come off, Locust, we think we can get the trucks
in and out without really crossing that sewer lateral. We
think there is a possibility to get some other things. The
other option which Reidel, coming down along the
fence line and using his property there, he would give
us right of way along there, he would have to give us
a piece of land up top to actually get off of Locust. Because
of the way the property line is I shaped. Those are the two
things he’s willing to do without going towards some kind
of eminent domain. It is somewhat understandable, we just
have to see if it would work, if it doesn’t. We would trespass
his front door with that easement. Which he still by the way,
denies that exists. Councilman Allar said a serious question,
if its physically possible to determine whether for forebay
in or outside the basin. I really the other option would be
condemnation. The only good option. The Springwood side,
if everything falls into place, PENN DOT and so forth,
that would be the best option. And option two would probably
be the condemnation. Councilman Noll said it would be better
to come in along the top and come down. Councilman Allar
said I know you talked about the basin, or the forebay inside
with access. It was clear from the meeting, he doesn’t want
touching the piece of his side. So wherever you’re going to
put it, you are still going to have a right of way even if its
inside. So we really only have these two. Councilman Snyder
said we have a right of way. Councilman Allar said we have
a right of way but its not a workable right of way, that’s
the problem. It’s a workable right of way, probably, if we
want to wait every five years when the basin is redded up,
and then go out with a $115,000.00 contractor for the
dredging. That’s what we’re trying to get away from. We
would have to make, even more than a 90 degree turn, we
going to have to back up the dump truck. We could take
the fence down and give it more room but if another
property owner if the property is sold, in fact Jason was
telling him, he was hearing numerous things that he
was thinking of selling that property. The new owner comes
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 17
in and says well we are laying over their property. If the
new owner comes in and say we’re laying over their property
line, the new owner comes in a builds a fence, he make
us to tear down our fence, we come into a very dangerous
situation of backing over that truck over a very narrow space.
We also run into DEP, we’re dealing with the bank at the
basin. We are going to have to get DEP approval, probably
have to have some sort of road bed down for that truck. We’re
also dealing with the lack of space, to put wet soil to dry it.
So the truck can take it out. We’re also dealing with, as it
currently exists, there is DEP approved wetland, 15 feet.
If you look at Jason diagram. That DEP approved wetland
as it stands now, going 15 feet from the fence line. Probably
not be enough. Then we would have to try to get DEP to
agree to modify the approved the wet land. We’re just piling
more and more stuff on top of this thing. Councilman Noll
said the long and short of this thing, if we can’t come in off
of Locust, we’re going to seriously have to look at putting
the forebay outside. Councilman Allar said if we have to
have Reidel and his property, regardless of where we go.
And the one, we can’t go on the property that he is willing
to give up, can we go on the property that requires a
condemnation. I thought, I talked to him and said to him,
is there a dollar figure, money figure, to get him to talk about
this, to consider the property on his side. He wouldn’t even
go there. I thought he would go $100,000.00 and even get
in the mind set, he wouldn’t even go there. Maybe if the
information that Jason has, contemplating the sale. People
don’t like to buy property that have easement claims. Maybe
that’s what’s on their minds. Councilman Noll said we’re not
sure on that road, how far the right of way is, if it would
be on the right of way at that point, then we would have to
take down that guard rail to gain access. Mr. Reichard said
really, talking about maintenance activity for the borough
you can run where the fence is, with the borough truck, you
have current access there. Councilman Noll said yes, you
could even put a road bed in there but for the major
construction portion, because of the trucks running over that
asbestos pipe. Mr. Reichard said that line is 7 to 9 feet deep in there,
where that lateral runs,its three to four feet deep, it goes through
the basin and hits the main at Springwood. That’s not going
to transfer any sort of . Councilman Allar said Jason when we
talked on the phone, this is an engineering, if you can get the
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 18
sewer authority of whatever municipality involved,their engineers
saying there’s no endangerment to their sewer line. However keep
that in the back of your mind, any problems that they’re going to
have in the future, they’re going to bring them up. Councilman
Noll said I think the thing is, its not so much the deep of regular
sewer, it’s the asbestos, they don’t want to touch that line. Mr.
Reichard said we replace it all the time, its pretty standard
construction. We do repairs. Councilman Noll said I’m just saying
what the mind set is. Mr. Reichard said I understand that. When
you were talking Reidels, where you talking to them about a temporary
easement at all? Temporary, cause if you did it in stages, temporary
easement just to access the basin from the side that we want to.
Councilman Noll said in the future if we want to access, it wouldn’t be temporary. Mr. Reichard said we would refer to our normal
operations and access through what we currently have as our
entrance. Councilman Noll said he was very, I don’t care if its
a temporary and easement, nothing on that side of the creek. He
doesn’t want us there. Mr. Reichard said he originally talked to me,
we had an agreement that we were writing a letter to him. Somewhere
along the line. Councilman Allar said access that he is willing to give
permission on, on a case to case basis, he is currently willing to do as
opposed to a legal easement or a legal selling of the property. Councilman
Snyder said that’s what he’s talking about, just to get a temporary
construction. Councilman Allar said I think what Seth is talking about,
you don’t want go down the road and build something and then find
out later that you can’t get permanent. Councilman Snyder said no, what
I heard Jason say, is get a temporary access easement down by the creek,
where we want. And then once we construct what we want to construct
be able to utilize our permanent easement that we have up by his house.
Mr. Reichard said oh no, we are going to abandon all that. Basically
we still require the flat land between Springwood and, use that for our
forebay area. Councilman Snyder said you are saying just for the
construction part? Mr. Reichard said for the construction project, we
need a clean shot in and out with trucks. That is the option, come in
directly there at the gabions. Councilman Myers asked we can come
down stream, and maybe buy something down this way. Councilman
Snyder said why can’t we just come in where the dam is? We’re going
to be digging that all out anyways so just dig it all out and just come right
up to where he is willing to give us. Councilman Allar said this is where
I think Jason. Mr. Reichard said downstream below and all the way around
the structure. Councilman Myers said yeah, that’s where, down below its
not his property. Maybe those people are more willing. Councilman
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 19
Snyder said what if we come in on top of the dam embankment.
Councilman Allar said that’s what was Jason was talking about,
when you come in below, you run into basically sewer lines.
Mr. Reichard said you cross that, you also. Councilman Myers said
what if we get permission to go up the old railroad bed on Boundary
Avenue. Mr. Reichard said I think that ultimately, you want to do
something above the basin. No matter what we want to do there,
would it work. Councilman Noll said we also looked at that railroad
easement as a possible way to come and develop, taking that large
property. That easement doesn’t exist behind, for access. Councilman
Allar said we’re also going to have rail trail there. Councilman Noll
said I really truly believe that we can get something worked out,
getting some minor things, people have concerns about that line
being saddled in concrete. Councilman Allar said when we talked to
York Township, they weren’t jumping for joy, with condemnation
in connection with this basin. They certainly didn’t say no way.
Councilman Noll said they support us in it. Councilman Allar said
we got the impression that it wasn’t a problem. So I think we have
the township behind us, if that happens. But again I think what’s
best is to get with PENN DOT and by looking at the plans and knowing
where the sewer is, if we can get around that. There’s quite a bit of
land on that Springwood side. Enough land. If we can access without
going over that sewer and if PENN DOT is willing. We got it made.
Councilman Snyder said I don’t see what the big deal with the sewer
anyways, because we constructed the whole dam. That sewer lateral
comes from Dallastown. Councilman Allar said they are in the process
of encasing it in concrete. Councilman Snyder said so why can’t we ask
our sewer authority, to chip in $10,000-$15,000.00 to encase it in
concrete. Get our sewer authority involved. Councilman Allar said
we’re coming in from where we have the access on Springwood,
and the spillway, depending on where that is, we may be encasing,
it all depends where that line is. Mr. Reichard said its not, all it is,
is a temporary, PENN DOT permit the driveway. Councilman Allar
said I’m talking about whether or not we’re encroaching on that
sewer. Mr. Reichard said if we go to Locust Street, with the right
of way. Councilman Noll said that only thing that really is question
is, the guard rail unto Locust. Mr. Reichard said ultimately all
we’re saying is temporary that would be our option for temporary
access, in and out through the basin for dredging. Ultimately,
the entrance would be trucks in and out. Councilman Noll said
we talked to the municipality, they have no problem as long
as we put the curb back. Its alright with them. You looking
at it and saying this is good, the only thing it is a little narrow
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 20
where we do have our entrance. To swing trucks and
everything. Still would like the option for tri axle.
Councilman Allar said if we could do a joint thing
with the township, we could use their trucks. Maybe
a loader. I talked to the township, I think they are willing
to help us out. Councilman Noll said they seem to be
willing to provide trucks. Councilman Snyder said it
sounds like you updated council as to where we are
at, I think have to wait until this on site meeting. Seth
is going to be following up with PENN DOT and
the gentleman from your office that you’re getting in
and coordinate with engineering and go from there.
Mr. Reichard said the major step is to get some
money so we are, we are moving on the PEMA grant
and the DCED grant/loan apps to get that in place.
Then once we have a pot of money on hand, then
that will change what we can or can’t do. We need
money to make this happen. Councilman Allar said
the only thing with the basin, I think the letter from
Waugh. Sandy made a copy. The letter to DEP signed
by Miller, Saylor and Depausquale. So now we have
four elected officials, two commissioners, we have
the county engineer, and the county planning all involved,
in support of this. If we need more elected officials,
I’ll get them. Councilman Noll said we need to make
sure that the other municipalities, get their funding, for
the following year. York Township gave us the commitment
while we were there, that yes, we put that money aside.
Councilman Allar said I’m covering that too. I already
talked to the county. There is going to be email or mail
to go out to the five or six municipalities asking that
carry forward to 09. Again its going to be up the
individual municipalities, if there is budget crunch or
something then we are going to have a short fall.
Councilman Noll said York Township said, definitely
their portion was there. Mayor Sanford asked who
attended from there? Councilman Noll said it was
Elizabeth Heathcote, Paul Knepper, and their
sewer authority rep. Councilman Allar said also
Yoe Mr. Reichard said on the Yoe Borough Park, we sent
Park up plans to DCNR for their comment/ review. It was
more of a courtesy, to let them know, that we are
working on the plans and the borough was active in
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 21
pursuing the project. Basically the plans have a rough
layout of access drive, ADA ramps, park amenities.
The comment we received was, where are the recreation
facilities. So obviously, DCNR is rec grant, we don’t
have recreation on it. We need to get serious on setting up
a committee that would talk about and make some decisions
on what we want to see up there for recreation improvement,
playground equipment, upgrades, jungle gym sets. What we’re
actually planning to do. I would like someone to volunteer
to organize that group and guess have a meeting of the
shareholders interested. Any nominations, volunteers?
Councilman Noll asked would it be possible for you and I
to get together and put a plan together, preferably to look
at, and go off of that. As a starting point. Mr. Reichard said
we can, its just I, I guess, whatever we do that the council
is agreed. If someone has it in their mind that they want
new swing sets. Councilman Noll said I think its been
outlined pretty well as to what we want, play areas,
additional equipment upgrades. Councilman Snyder said
I know we have equipment that is fifty years old that
needs replaced. Mr. Reichard said maybe the three of us.
Councilman Noll said we can meet Dana up at the park
one day, flag all the stuff that he feels we need. Look at
the areas that we are thinking about for play equipment.
Mr. Reichard said I think we put in there $45,000.00.
Mr. Shearer said I can spend that easy. Mr. Reichard
said okay. Councilman Noll said the people that were
hear from Broad Street, I will mention a way for them
to get involved a little later.
CDBG Mr. Reichard said I talked to Joiann Galiano from the
Grant planning commission about our CDBG grant. We made
it through the meeting that was held, no changes, we’re
still on the list. The commissioners have not reviewed
their plan yet so, there hasn’t been any decision made
on the official approval. They’re expected to review that
sometime in November. So hopefully at the end of
November we will have some kind of update that is
officially approved and we’re on the list. She did mention
a fast track, she had written down, once we get approval
we should get funding in 2009. So we can use that
with the DCNR grant.
MOU Councilman Snyder said we received the MOU from
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 22
WAY that was signed and got that back and that is now
on file. If you recall that’s now perpetual, unless one of
us gets out of it.
Sewer Councilman Snyder said we received the minutes from the
Authority quarterly meeting from the sewer authority, they’ve been
Minutes accepted and approved. And now they are on file. Of course
most of the issues that I looked over in their engineer report,
were the issues that we going over, with the problems of
lateral at 171 and 147, etc.
York Councilman Snyder said we received notice from York
Township Township that they will not be paving Yoe Drive during
Notice 2008 because of that Supreme Court decision with projects
For Yoe exceeding $25,000.00. They will not make any determination
Drive for next year street paving until 2009 and will keep us
Notice Councilman Snyder said notice was received of the extension
Extension of the current NPDES Phase Two MS-4 general permit that
NPDES is extended for one year to March 9,2010.
County Aid Mr. Reichard said one more thing, Tom spoke to someone
in our office, I think John Klinedinst about county aid.
I brought down an application for county aid and I’m not
sure what project it may be related to. Councilman Allar
said with infrastructures, there is liquid fuels money
with the county. Its on a calendar basis, whether or not
its available for 08, I have someone checking on that
right now. Mr. Reichard said there is still some, but if
you want any, you’d better get it in now. Councilman
Allar said that’s what I’m thinking. I have reason to
believe from conversation with some people that
we would probably be looked up favorably and that
would be for both bridges. I know that Jeff had done
with once before for Mason. In this process, in the
C. S. Davidson files, there is already an engineering
study done for Mason Alley. I don’t what degree of
technical information we need to do as far as Church
Street. I know Dana went out and got some bids on
it and so forth. That may be enough. But the application,
whatever the form is there, a very simple process to
submit. If we don’t get it for 08, we would for 09.
Councilman Noll said currently bridges are a hot
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 23
item. Mr. Reichard said the county usually gives lots of
about $10,000.00 a piece. I think that’s what we had
in the past. It came down to an issue of not having
enough money to continue beyond that point. They
wanted to know if we wanted, they were closing out
their budget. So we turned it back in. Councilman
Allar asked so they came to you? Mr. Reichard said
no, the borough. Councilman Snyder said we got
a letter. Mr. Reichard said the borough made a decision,
and we turned that back to them, we weren’t in the
position to use it by the end that. Councilman Snyder
said before we get into this again, there was a reason
we didn’t follow through with it. Do you remember
what it was? I think it had something to do with trying
to tie it in, because of permitting with the gabion work.
We didn’t have money to finish the gabion work for
the way it was going to be fixed to be tied in with the
gabion work. Therefore we wanted to do the two projects
together, we couldn’t or we didn’t get the money to
finish the gabion walls so therefore we did not want
to proceed with these stand alone projects to do the
bridges. Now that’s off the top of my head. Councilman
Allar said you’re correct, the gabions absolutely needed
a permit. Fixing the bridges, our bridges, needs a DEP
permit. Now, but, its only because we had one contractor,
one mobilization, we would wait until we had the
money for the gabions. From the engineering standpoint,
if the monies are available, someone’s going to get it.
Councilman Noll said is that for the end of the fiscal
year 2008 or for its for July 2009? Mr. Reichard said
I believe its 2009, ours carried over a year or so.
Councilman Snyder said I think it was carried like
two years. And finally they sent a letter cause we
had to actually deny it. We had to send them a letter
saying we were not going to follow through with the
project so they could get it off the books. And that’s
what I’m saying, before we go and start getting more
money tied, before we do this. I want to make sure
that we are prepared of following through with it,
Not that we suddenly find that the county will give
us $20,000.00 but it’s a $50,000.00 job therefore
you need to come up with $30,000.00. Yeah its
great to have $20,000.00 there but we don’t
have $30,000.00 to finish it. I don’t want us to
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 24
get in the position of turning down money again. Councilman
Noll asked what’s wrong with the bridges? Councilman
Allar said we know what the costs are. Councilman
Snyder said five years ago. Councilman Allar said well
obviously the cost with inflation and so on. Dana has
a fairly recent one, that was what six months ago.
So I think we can ball park what the costs are. Mr. Reichard
said for Mason, it’s a box culvert its settling out on the one
side and shifting and the gabions are settling out of place.
Church Street is underpinning required especially along
the flow line and its undermining and needs to be excavated
and drilled out. Councilman Allar said do you remember
what that quote was? Councilman Snyder said it was
around the time of the Mother’s Day storm, we checked
all the gabions out. I think Jeff was down, and that was
when we first got him on board. We looked at the ones
down by the Mason Alley bridge and the way that thing
was so twisted it was pushing in, it was pinching the
gabions and I think Jeff was the one saying, basically
when you move that, you’re going to lose the stability
of the gabions and you’re going to be replacing gabions
along with it. That’s why it was all tied into one project.
And that’s what I’m saying, we weren’t prepared which
is why we didn’t follow through with it, we weren’t
prepared to fix the gabions. We didn’t have the money
to fix the gabions. Councilman Noll asked how close
can you get on a estimate? Mr. Reichard said, you said
$8000.00 for Church Street. Councilman Allar said I
seem to remember. Mr. Shearer said I don’t remember
off the top of my head, if I remember correctly, when
I got those figures it was actually last fall because we
were, we were getting those figures for this year’s
budget. For the life of me, I’d have to go back and
try to dig up the estimate. I put out the request to
three different contractors, and I do recall that
Keystruct was the only one that came back with
a price. Mr. Reichard said that was around $8000.00.
Mr. Shearer said I don’t remember. Councilman Allar
said that’ what I remember. You have to look at,
that, and see if you can do that bridge without
undermining something else. And all the gabions.
Councilman Noll said can you make a quick phone
call and see how much money is accessible because
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 25
you are probably looking at $15,000.00 projects and if
there is only $10,000.00 available. Mr. Reichard said
I asked the county engineer and his response was put
it in now. Councilman Noll said I hate for you to spend
a lot of time and money. Councilman Snyder said this
is what I’m afraid, knowing the other time, we spent
5, no disrespect, we spend $5,000.00 on engineering
to put in money for CDBG grants, to put in for five
CDBG grants knowing that we wouldn’t probably
get any because we just spent this money on the
Mother’s Day storm. We poured more engineering
dollars down the drain. We already know, we had
liquid fuels money to fix this bridge before and the
reason for why we didn’t pursue it, because something
else was tied to it. I hate to get Jason and say, yeah,
start spending engineering dollars to go after this
money. I’m for free money but if we can’t finish
the project, it does us no good and all we did is
waste more engineering dollars here. Councilman
Allar said the engineering, the application is a very
simple process, when talking about engineering dollars.
And number two, you heard Jason said, what he’s
saying there is money available, if they don’t have
other takers, they’re going burn that money off. It
may be, if you don’t want to do Mason, then do
Church. Councilman Snyder said yes, if a good
figure is $8000.00, we can put in for a $8000.00.
Councilman Allar said as far as engineering work,
engineering work is done. Jeff Shue did it. We know
what Mason Alley is. Mr. Reichard said the application
part. Councilman Allar said all Jason is going to
do is look at it and maybe update the features. Councilman
Snyder said that’s problem, Barry you were involved
in getting that money from. I don’t recall. Mr. Reichard
said it’s the second phase, in this application, it isn’t
the end of the world, probably even, volunteer to write
this thing up for you. Problem is the permit. General
permits are about $2000.00. That’s if every runs
smoothly, its an extended process. Probably what was
going with Mason, we had money, but council wanted
to look into going to get the permit and actually looking for
a contractor which is additional cost. Which is the backside
of getting the money in the first place. So. Councilman
Noll said $8000.00 is what he said, I think it will cost
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 26
you $15,000.00 what you have do and everything else, all
I’m saying if you go after it, go after it, you can get a couple
bucks back. Will they cover the engineering fee? Mr. Reichard
said I don’t think they do, I would have to ask. Councilman
Myers said you get the money for the project, or a portion of
the project. Councilman Allar said keep in mind, whether we
need a bridge now, a year from now, ten years from now, we’re
still going to have that cost. Councilman Snyder said its just
a matter of do we spend engineering time and dollars now.
I wish we could say, hold off a month, Jason come back, and tell
us what happened the last time that we couldn’t do. If it’s a
matter that we have to spend a $100,000.00 in gabion work. We
know we don’t have it so, why spend this time and money to
pursue Mason Alley, when we know we can’t do it. If you come
back and say, its only a $20,000.00 fix. And its just because you
didn’t have money for a permit. Then add $2,000.00 on to that and
we get the money for the permit. I don’t remember what it was.
Councilman Allar said we’re saying the same thing, the bridge
people, C. S Davidson is going to go out there and look at it.
Send it in to the county, got it approved. All Jason has to do is
look at it again and see if the bridge can be done. There’s no
extra engineering. Mr. Reichard said for the permit. Orginally
we had a permit that was going to take us to the box culvert.
Whatever, it came down the plumbing and the limitations
of that permit, was modified, pulled backed up to match
the paperwork that we had funding for. Councilman Snyder
said takes us to the end of Main Street. Mr. Reichard said
we no longer had a permit to do the work. Councilman Myers asked
can’t it be just a maintenance permit on the bridge? Mr. Reichard
said you still have to have a general permit. Councilman Snyder
said can you add that request in, if you look back on the records,
and you find out it’s a $20,000.00 fix, for Mason Alley, can you
you request $22,000.00 so we get the money. Mr. Reichard said
I’d have to ask. My history would be for construction. To do
a bridge project and you get $10,000.00 for a $50,000.00.
Councilman Snyder said you know we won’t be getting this until
next year, so that’s something we can always budget for next
year. Councilman Noll said and also this is 2008 money, I think
we ought to strike now if we want it, even if we don’t do anything
on Mason right now until 2009, at least do Church Street. Councilman
Snyder said then we at least have a figure. Councilman Noll said
are we pretty secure that its $12,000.00 for Church for engineering
and material of 12 to 13. We know we are going to have to fix it.
Councilman Snyder said that’s why we are saying for like 12, we’ll
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 27
go for fifteen. Councilman Allar said the question we need to ask,
the county will have the numbers. Mr. Reichard said we’ll probably
get $10,000.00. That’s all. Anyone I have ever seen has been
$10,000.00. Specially for that job. Councilman Snyder said if I
recall, I’m not sure, but we got like $26,000.00 for Mason Alley.
It was a pretty good chunk. Councilman Myers said they tie it
in. Mr. Reichard said I’ll find out it will be in the file. So council
wants one put together for Church Street? Councilman Noll said
definitely for Church Street, for this year. Councilman Snyder said
if we can go after the one on Mason too. Its just a matter, I don’t
remember why we never followed through with it. And if we’re
not prepared to answer the question. Councilman Myers said I
think we didn’t have enough money for the gabions, and that’s
why we chucked it up, because we didn’t have enough money
for the gabions. Councilman Snyder said that’s why I’m saying,
I think we had to do gabions work along with. We know we’re
not prepared to do that so, why even. Mr. Reichard said it was
permitting, I remember clearly. Councilman Snyder said, so if
it only came down to permitting, we’re going to need a permit
to do Church. Then why not get a permit and do both. And
do it all in one permit. Put two projects in, one permit. As long
as that’s what the whole issues is and its not that we have to
come up with a $100,000.00 for the gabions. Councilman Allar
said and again, I was not going to go forward with this, we can
forward because we have an old report, when we pull it, we are
going to see what the original concept was. Mr. Reichard said
and that’s been three four years, the figures we had on that.
And if you want to recontact your people and get new estimates
for it, that can change considerably, $8000.00 can now be,
$11,000.00. And now has to be advertising. The secretary said
your budget is coming up, you’ve got to start thinking of where
you’re going to be at. Councilman Myers said we’ll we don’t know
that. The secretary said you can’t play games with nothing, you don’t
have $10,000.00 here and $15,000.00 there. You don’t have it.
Councilman Snyder said I think the idea of what Jason was saying,
if we go for this and assume, $15,000.00 on the project and you update
figures on the project and it comes in at $16,000.00. We’re back to
what we just did. We got the money and we don’t have a project
because we’re not going to follow through with it. Councilman
Allar said these would qualify for liquid fuels money, that’s one
category for liquid fuels. We can make up a $1000.00 or $2000.00.
Councilman Snyder said on liquid fuels. Councilman Noll said
now’s the time to get contractors. Councilman Snyder said in
other words its nothing we would have to budget for, as long
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 28
the numbers are good. Councilman Snyder asked is it one
application? Mr. Reichard said its one, um, I have to take a
look at. Councilman Allar said John said you can do both
bridges with one. Mr. Reichard said alright, yeah and then.
Councilman Snyder said and then if its considered one
application, two bridges, if you can’t do the other bridge
cause the gabions have to be tied into it, that gives us
extra money for the one because its still part of the application.
Because we’re not really saying how much we’re spending
on each. Mr. Reichard said, well, we’re going to. If we
put it on the application, its for those two projects. Councilman
Noll said you have enough money to cover the spread if one
comes in too high. The secretary asked Jason, if the permit fee
can’t be covered with that, what is the most amount that we
have to dish out and can we use state liquid fuels fund for the
permit. Jason said no to the second and right away I say $2000.00
for the permit. The secretary said in your heads, keep the $2000.00
fee for budget. Mr. Reichard said whenever you combine the two.
Two permits. The secretary said so say $3000.00. Councilman Snyder
said so if we were budgeting $20,000.00 for engineering we should
now budget $23,000.00. Councilman Snyder said you are saying
that permit fee can be used out liquid fuels. Mr. Reichard said I don’t
think it can, cause its. Its their liquid fuels, when liquids fuels are used
for engineering and planning, it changes itself. Councilman Snyder
said now would be the time to do it because we have to do it. We’re
going to set up a budget meeting, might as well raise taxes and say
its going for engineering. Councilman Allar said the nice thing about this
is, we’re going to know really quickly. Councilman Snyder said so its
either one or two applications based on what you find out and its for
the two bridges. A motion was made by Councilman Allar to have Jason
submit one or two applications for county aid for the two bridges. The
motion was seconded by Councilman Howett. All in favor. Mr. Reichard
said I’ll probably have Steve Malesker do it. He actually did the
inspection on Mason, help me get some recommendations on Church.
The engineer does the county bridge inspection program. Councilman
Snyder said remember we already did all this, its probably in a file
somewhere. Councilman Snyder said motion carried. It should be around
the Mother’s Day storm cause I know. Mr. Reichard said I’ve seen
the folder its there.
Yoe Councilman Noll said one other thing under engineer. It goes back
Drive to Yoe Drive, we were talking to them on the paving side of things.
Paving The only question they had, we did talk to York Township about that,
they want to look at it next year, they’re not 100% that they’re going to
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 29
do it. Just to be clear, we have no bonding on anything with the
developer, with those houses up there, to get any money back.
Mr. Reichard said the borough doesn’t from what I understand.
And I think, the county does. I went through my file, I went
through the computer system. The only thing I could find was
a letter that I made comments, outstanding comments, about
security for the public improvements. And I have check mark
beside it. So. So some where along the line those communications,
someone verified that, that was in place and I think it was with
the county. Councilman Noll said that is something that we would
need to know. York Township is willing to use that money, if
its still to administer everything, to take out of the position of
doing things with, if there’s no bond or any. We have to find
out with the contractor, that did that, is on the hook for. Mr.
Reichard said when I talked to the contractor, he was more than
willing provide his fair share for it. Councilman Noll said what
I believe is that, that fair share can be used as our contribution,
with the hope that its just a little paving that he has to do. As
our contribution to get that done, not just a little paving that
he has to do on the road. That York Township would find that
acceptable. Mr. Reichard said Jeff Firestone is the contractor.
He needs to know to cut a check to York Township and they
relieve him of the responsibilities to pay for the paved road.
Councilman Noll, right, they would do that, when they
do the project, depending on that figure they may consider
that Yoe’s contribution. Mr. Reichard asked they didn’t have
anything posted with the township? Councilman Noll said
because that was all done through Yoe, they know nothing
on it. Councilman Snyder said but they had to sign off on the
subdivision. Mr. Reichard said I don’t remember. Councilman
Myers asked why? Councilman Snyder said because that
last lot was in York Township, they had to get York Township
and Yoe Borough. Councilman Noll said they did make mention,
that they did inspect the whole project out there. Mr. Reichard
said they did inspect the project, I swear, that letter did involve
the township. Councilman Noll said we have to find that out
because I think if we can find that, then put that contractor on
the hook for 5, 10 or whatever thousand dollars. Then we can
go back to York Township with our contribution of what he
owes us. Mr. Reichard said I’ll find out and I’ll see if I can
find out, get ahold the lady of the one involved with that plan
with the county. Councilman Snyder said at this point, you’ll
get back to Seth. Councilman Noll said so we can say, this
is what we have, what can we do, with money put up through
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 30
the contractor, will that take care of everything. Its an
Councilman Snyder said anything else for the engineer?
Second Tuesday of next month.
Cameras Mr. Shearer said the first thing, last month I circulated
at Park the quotes from Perpetual adding cameras to the park.
Just to give you an idea what those figures were. And
out of the blue, we got a call from CIA, which is Crime
Intervention Alarm. They had called and asked if there
was anything they could quote us on. So I have down,
to look at adding four cameras to the current system.
It comes around right around $2900.00. Which if we
take the quote from Perpetual, and pull out the
multiplexer that they were going to add, we were going to
to nine cameras at the park, nine camera system and he
suggested we increase the multiplexer to make it easier.
He suggested we increase the multiplexer, if you take that
out of his price, that puts us at right around $2900.00
also. That’s where, that’s what we’re looking at if we
want to add four more cameras, which would cover the
playground areas and another view of the bathroom so
we can try to get better identification there. So I don’t if
you want to put that into your number as to what you
want to look at for next year. I don’t know if we’re in a
position. Councilman Snyder asked why can’t we do that
with the park grant? Councilman Noll said I agree that
the cameras need to be there, do you want to put a lot,
with equipment and the other things, do we want to do
a layout so we get our bang for our buck. Councilman Allar
said we can put it in the park grant. Councilman Snyder
said whenever you get together with Seth and Jason up there,
just keep that in the back of your mind. Mr. Shearer said
I informed the guy from CIA, that basically what we were
looking at right now. We were in the budgeting phase. He
knows we aren’t looking at anything large scale at this time.
Councilman Snyder said my own personal opinion though,
as far as Perpetual Electronics, every time we bought
cameras for that place, we’ve ended up upgrading this
multiplexer. I think we’ve bought enough multiplexers now.
I mean that’s just my opinion. Mr. Shearer said and when
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 31
he proposed that, initially we had gotten, we were also
looking at some cameras here, his theory was we can
take the nine camera and bring it down here to operate
four cameras here and then get a sixteen one to operate
nine cameras there. Councilman Snyder said the last I heard,
the one that we bought up there, could operate numerous
amount of cameras, its just that they’re not all going to be
displayed at the same time because you only can display
nine at one time, on frame. But you could always go and
pick up, cause its motion sensitive, it would always default
to when it picked up motion. Councilman Allar asked did
CIA look at what we have? Mr. Shearer said yes, I took him
up there and showed him what we had, and I also took the
quote that we had from Perpetual and made a copy of it,
without the pricing. And said this is what we need to get
an apples to apples type deal. Basically, we are looking
at just four cameras. He kept pushing a service contract
deal. I don’t remember what the cost of the service contract
was. Might have been around $75.00 a month or so for us.
But, it would allow us, whenever there is problem during the
contract year, the multiplexer went up, new multiplexer, a
camera went up, new camera. Lost a multiplexer and a camera,
we got both. Of course, he didn’t say if nothing happens, this
much money. Sort of like what you get with your home appliances.
Actually, when he came down, he brought a lap top. I think
that was one thing about the multiplexer, it would give us better
capabilities to get pictures off that newer multiplexer as opposed
to the one we have now, with a CD. Which they do have the
equipment, by Perpetual to get the pictures off there. I don’t
know what quality of the pictures. I guess there again. With
change you get better quality. The system CIA had, he
actually brought up a local business, that allows him to use,
their internet access to show customers. It was quite impressive,
the clarity of the pictures, the color. I don’t see that’s needed,
expensive right now. When the stuff goes bad that’s the time to
upgrade. Councilman Allar said are you considering putting
cameras around the basketball court? Mr. Shearer said no not
at this time, the three cameras that will be around the playground
area will basically cover, the new playground equipment that
is up there, the area where we currently have playground equipment
the stuff we’re talking about replacing, and the parking area.
Councilman Allar said I only mention it because this is probably
going to be the only opportunity that we’re going to have, since
we got the money. I know we had vandalism. I would hate to see
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 32
something happen. And the other issue, CIA is a real good
savings I think we should consider it, but if its close, we are
going to have two different vendors with different equipment.
So unless real savings, we should stay with the same horse.
Councilman Myers asked weren’t we having issues with him?
Councilman Allar said with response, sometimes they respond
real well, sometimes not. Councilman Myers said we never
got a price for the fire company. Councilman Allar said one
of the reasons is that I know he had some health problems.
Mr. Shearer said he gave me the service the same day. Councilman
Myers said I know Tom had to get involved and make a phone
call or two a few months ago. Mr. Shearer said we were having
problems getting a price, coming service, he would come right
away. I think he was tied up, involved with the fairs and installation,
when we had the lightening strike. I just had to make one call
for that, might have taken a couple days.
Classes Mr. Shearer said the classes I had scheduled for the end of the month
down in Montgomery County, I had noticed on the website that they
are starting to add some more at closer locations. One of them is this
month, that I won’t be able to attend for the traffic commons. But
they are having one of the classes next spring in March in Gettysburg.
What I did, March you are getting into winter weather. To try to save
money, hotel rooms are outrageous in that area. I am planning doing
once class in Montgomery County that would be traffic common
class because they have a project down there, that they’ve done
the traffic common. The traffic engineering class I’ll push back
until its at Gettysburg. Then I won’t have to be gone for two days.
Feasibility Mr. Shearer said we’ve started feasibility study committee meetings
Study for the Ma & Pa Greenway trail. We had one so far and we have
Committee another scheduled for in November. Shortly, not until the end of
this year but towards the beginning of next year, we will be
having public meetings, some things that they will need community
people for. If there are people you know that have expressed desire
to opinions, good or bad, as far as the rail trail, keep that in the
back of your mind. They’d like us to get a cross section of the
municipality, so we don’t get that everyone is pro or everyone is
con. Get different opinions. They are talking about inviting 25,
hoping 12 show. So. If you can find 12 people that care. Councilman
Allar said I can give you some names.
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 33
Traffic Mr. Shearer said as far as the traffic count up on W. Broad Street.
Count I know we had some concerns from the citizenry up there, Tom
has set up for LTAP to come down with their engineers to give
us some recommendations, and conduct traffic counts on W.
Broad Street for a week. To give us volume and speed and
direction counts to see which way they’re coming. How many
and how fast. Get those numbers processed and come back to
us. I’m sure they will give us an idea of what the problems are.
Councilman Allar said the numbers aren’t processed yet.
We weren’t within the 80% but they had one or so that were
going seventy. Mayor Sanford asked what time? Councilman
Allar said I don’t remember a time. Mayor Sanford asked so
we didn’t get a written report yet? Councilman Allar said no,
but for the overall. They require 15%. Councilman Myers said
when these people come walking in, it would be nice to
have a written report to show them. Councilman Allar said
we’ll get a written report and send them a copy of the report.
Mr. Shearer said LTAP does have those counters, this time
its our demonstration. Next time, they would provide us with
ability to have the counters, for a week or so and set them up.
And then return them to them, and report on the information and
give it back to us, so that if we ever need a traffic count for
a traffic study. Which we will need, with this engineering study
class, there are certain things that we can do on our own. We’re
have the ability to get traffic count numbers. Mayor Sanford
said they can’t tell what type of vehicle? Councilman Allar said
you are talking volume, speed. If the speed is excessive enough
to warrant speed bumps, etc. Mr. Shearer said basically they
look at that information, as to speed, if its in the 85%, if it
exceeds that or the volume. Councilman Allar said the reason
being, to use liquid fuels, PENN DOT to approve it. PENN DOT,
without this information. Mr. Shearer said I believe that’s about
Crack Mayor Sanford asked have you checked the cracks in the borough,
Sealing do we need to be concerned to seal them before it freezes, is that
on your agenda? Mr. Shearer said this is the time, October,
November, best time before it gets cold and ice. Mayor Sanford
said I also saw some. Mr. Shearer said the expansion theory,
fill the cracks and over night they get sealed up.
Weeds Councilman Allar said one thing to beat up Barry, did you get
the information for Dana the license for weeds. Councilman
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 34
Myers said we can make him an applicator. The insurance is
the same regardless. Get the paperwork. Get him signed up,
to go for classes. Councilman Allar said it would cost like
ten bucks. Councilman Myers said a technician is ten bucks.
I forget what ours is. I thought the insurance would be cheaper,
its not for an applicator. So. Mayor Sanford, said, its not
open book anymore. We were just told. Councilman Myers said
the category is not open book. Mayor Sanford said no.
Councilman Snyder asked anything else for maintenance.
Zoning Officer’s Report
Councilman Myers said he went after people for junk cars,
he went to a hearing for sewer authority at Teyral office.
Grass, weeds, trash. A lot of grass, weeds. Unenclosed
storage. Mayor Sanford asked what’s the deal with the
boat across from the parking lot of the church, along
the curb, that’s not legal is it, how long has it been there?
Councilman Myers said that’s been there for about two
months, you can buy it for $1200.00.
Councilman Snyder asked any issues for the zoning officer?
Trailer Mr. Shearer said the issue with the trailer. Mayor Sanford said
ask council. On a trailer. Councilman Noll said it has current
license. Mayor Sanford said I don’t know if its current. Maybe
let it go until snow falls. Its along the line. Right where the
bright green house is. Mr. Shearer said I never quite understood,
we have that posted no parking, yet he parks over on his property.
Shouldn’t he have a driveway? Councilman Myers said the original
owners always had. Councilman Snyder said that would be a PENN
DOT issue, to park off there. Councilman Myers said when the
original owners, Richter, there was a driveway there going to
a garage. Over the years, the driveway disappeared. Mr. Shearer
said they always park between the boat and house. Councilman
Myers said they’re not in the street, in the right of way but not
in the street. You’d have to ask the mayor about that, parking
on the right of way versus the street. Mayor Sanford said I don’t
know, I’ll find out. Councilman Snyder said its posted no parking.
Councilman Myers said the bad thing is, they have no place to
go. If you do that, you’re going to push them into the fire company
parking lot, and they’re already there anyways. Councilman Snyder
said we can be the bad guy, if the mayor is going to check in on it.
I’ll just ask Chris.
Zoning Officer’s Report(cont.) Page 35
39 W. Councilman Snyder said I do have one thing under zoning, I got
George an email from Dan, he received a permit application for 39
Street W. George Street to build a single family residence which includes
App sidewalk installation at 39 at 37. His question is, do we want the
property at 53 W. George Street, which is the next property west,
to finish their sidewalk? That would be the property, that has the
red stone in front of it. It turns out, the subdivision was approved,
for that lot. I don’t know how they are building a house, that’s
the property in question. They are putting in the sidewalk, then
the only portion, there is curbing there, the only portion that would
not have sidewalk is that portion that has that red stone. Mr. Shearer
that was part of the agreement for the subdivision that they had to
finish the sidewalk in front of that house. I assuming that was the one.
Councilman Snyder said he was the one that subdivided it, or that
parcel that subdivided, cause he owned both, subdivided his property.
He subdivided it, L& L homes, and part of the subdivision both of
them required. Councilman Myers asked, Connie do you remember when
Red Lion Water was putting the water down there and they offered
to put some of that in free. Mrs. Crull said yes. Councilman Myers said
somehow it didn’t happen, the neighbors didn’t want it or we didn’t
want it. Mrs. Crull said we had a problem with, with a permit on
stormwater we went through all that one time before, that should
be taken into consideration. Something about the water can’t run out
onto the lawns. Councilman Snyder said part of that storm water,
there’s a storm water management plan that was approved with that
subdivision. They had to put some sort of seepage pit in there, Then
they have to dig underground and pipe it under the street to get it
across George Street. Councilman Noll said how long ago was that
done? Councilman Snyder said three to four years. Councilman Noll
said that probably needs to be redone, subdivision, new standards.
Councilman Myers asked does that mean, where Josh and his house
is there, they’re going to put driveways in, how is that going to
work? Councilman Snyder got the plans out, this is the final
subdivision plan. Councilman Snyder said the one we actually
approved I’m not sure but. Councilman Noll said this is where
we might want to hold them to new standards. Councilman Snyder
said I don’t know, is that a question for? I’ll just take that along
with me, so I know what I’m talking about. I can contact Jason
on that. That’s the signed one, that gives us a roundabout time.
Does an approved subdivision have a time limit on it? And see
what he says. Councilman Noll said and with the E & S. Councilman
Snyder said I don’t know who bought it or what the status is
on it. The secretary said Oakwood Homes. Mrs. Crull said
Zoning Officer’s Report(cont.) Page 36
Douglas Zook. Councilman Snyder said this just says final
subdivision for L & T Homes. That’s hard to say who had that.
Councilman Noll said they filed their plan. Councilman Snyder
said there are a couple of these floating around. The question
then is, I have to contact Jason on that. The second question is,
they’re moving forward on it, assume permits have already
been issued. I know Pete said, if permits are already issued, then
we only have thirty days to revoke them. Otherwise the person
has monetary investment and then we would pay a lot of money
to get them back. If indeed they are moving on them, the question
becomes whether we want to do 53. Mayor Sanford said you said
they had an opportunity before, and chose not to concrete. Councilman
Snyder said I think they still had to pay, but I think it would have
been at reduced rate or something. I think the water company would
have done it, but charged them like $20.00 a foot or whatever.
Councilman Myers said I thought they offered to pay for the whole
thing. Councilman Snyder said I know what council’s thought was
in the past. We let quite a few of new homes being built, even
back there on Yoe Drive, not put in sidewalks. And when he asked
me this question, I said yes we do have the right. That’s the
question to council. I told him, send them a letter, tell them the
neighbors are doing it cause they have to do it, and that they
maybe able to piggyback on with their contractor to get a better
rate. But also let them know, that, that’s just your opinion and
it would have to be approved at council. Councilman would have
to force them, to put them on notice to put sidewalks in. Councilman
Noll said enforce it, if that was the agreement. Councilman Snyder
said there was no agreement with these people, it’s the next
property up. Councilman Noll said right, is there something written
as far as the ordinance. Councilman Snyder said they have the
curb. Someone needs to make a motion or else the issue dies. I
can go either way on this one, I know we have an ordinance that
I am looking at that property across from Yoe Auto Parts, that
whole curve. We have plenty of property owners here in town,
they should be replacing sidewalks. That’s part of me, that
says we either have to take a heavy hand and just go through
town and have these people replace their sidewalks and that
would help in the way the town looks. At the same point, when
you do that that’s. That is not the popular thing to do, especially
with this economy. I can either way on this. I think we have
duty, we have an ordinance on the books at the same point.
Councilman Allar said I think the line should be drawn, at
the safety issue, its something that injury could be made on.
I think the area, consider legal action or whatever you need.
Zoning Officer’s Report(cont.) Page 37
Someone else can’t come along and say well, hey I don’t
have to do mine cause you didn’t make him do it. No that’s
not the issue, this was a dangerous sidewalk. To go across
the board, there are two many people that aren’t going to
do it. Dallastown got $100,000.00 for new sidewalks, and
they’re on the short list for $100,000.00 for sidewalks.
Mayor Sanford said we have that paving project coming
in the spring, and there are some in the upper end of town
need sidewalks and curb. As long as we are talking about
this, I brought this up a couple months ago. Council was
not interested in pursuing that but, talking about it again,
its something to look at before they pave. Councilman Snyder
said now this is an issue where the person already has a
curb in place so they wouldn’t have to disturb the new road
that they just put in. They shouldn’t. Councilman Noll said
it comes down, if the borough wants this town to look like
something, you want something things to do here. If you don’t
enforce the ordinances, so its not easy, its not comfortable, its
not always the popular thing to do but you’ve got to do it,
if you want to go in that direction. Councilman Allar said
to a point, there are people that say I’m going to sell and just
move out, then we just have more empty houses. We don’t
know how people that would think about. We have the theory.
Councilman Noll said but if we never do anything to make
it any different. Councilman Allar said well, I think we
deal with safety issues with the worse sidewalks, that are
dangerous. Councilman Noll said I’m not saying if you have
three cracks in your sidewalk you have to replace it, but if
you have chunks missing. Then you go after those people.
I feel the ordinance is there, and then if it’s a piece of sidewalk
that is a safety issue, now what’s the point if the other people
put in a sidewalk. Councilman Allar said safety issue, I think
is very easy. Mayor Sanford said the fact that the ball diamond
is here and the center of town is there and you pass over it,
that would help. Councilman Noll said I make a motion that they
put in a sidewalk in front of 53 W. George Street. The motion
was seconded by Councilman Allar. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said motion carried. Then I think its only fair then, especially
since we are only talking safety and since we are looking at the Main
Street getting redone this year. I think if there’s other sidewalks that
need to be looked at prior to that road being done. Now would be the
time to be putting these people on notice. Cause I hate to be seeing
Main Street being repaved and then someone saying I think this
sidewalk needs to be redone. Mayor Sanford said if they just
Zoning Officer’s Report(cont.) Page 38
wanted to redo the sidewalk but if they redo the curb and need
to cut. Councilman Noll asked how does that curb, is that
curb the property owners responsibility cause it’s a separated curb
I know that, when I did mine. Is that’s part of the state road, that
curb. Councilman Myers said that’s your problem, its your
responsibility. Councilman Allar said the curb then becomes an
issue, you don’t know the thickness for PENN DOT. Mayor
Sanford said I know they’re milling it. Councilman Allar said
you don’t want. The secretary said there are the new plans.
Councilman Noll said I think it’s a separated curb. Councilman
Snyder said I would think, I don’t know. If they put in, like
they did down here,put in all new curb. Then all they would
have to do is replace the sidewalk after the fact. Councilman
Noll said maybe that’s something we ought to find out from
PENN DOT, there are areas where the curb is shattered. Something
we should find out as part of the overlay project. Also find
out what spec we have to use. Mayor Sanford said I understand
from talking to Dallastown’s manager, that, that curb and sidewalk
are the homeowner’s responsibility. They did make them, replace
some on Broad Street, between Lombard and North Pleasant.
Councilman Noll said have Dana go out and make recommendations
as far as what we need. Councilman Snyder said I don’t think anyone
looked at this. The secretary said Dana did. Councilman Snyder asked
do you want to ask him next time if he notice anything on there as
far as curbing, that they would doing anything with the curbing. See if
we can find out how we would even tell anybody. Let’s face, that
one across from Yoe Auto Parts. Its almost disintegrated, if they have
to replace curb. We can’t tell someone they have to replace something
and then not tell them what they have to do it too. That’s what I’m
getting that. Mayor Sanford said it would be specified if they are going
to replace it. Councilman Noll said have PENN DOT give us the spec.
Councilman Snyder said that’s the question to ask Dana, contact
PENN DOT and see if there’s any specs that they can send us, if we
were going to have people replace sidewalks before this project is
done. Councilman Noll said if they want separated. Councilman Snyder
said and those specs would probably tell us if they want the curb
reveal. That would tell them how far they’re going down and see what
they come up with. He’s working with the LTAP, he knows what
person to work with. Councilman Snyder said I’ll contact him and let
him know council’s decision on 53. Anything else under zoning?
Emergency Management Coordinator’s Report Page 39
Radios Mayor Sanford reported I received from Eric Bisline information
about the current radio system. It’s quite lengthy, it covers
several topics. I will ask that it be put into the EMA folder.
Pagers Mayor Sanford said the new pagers are being issued as we
speak. The borough will pick up their portables on October
15th at a training. The secretary asked will they give us a bill
at that time? Councilman Myers said no. Councilman Allar
said I’m just thinking again, we are redoing the park, what
about the siren. Councilman Myers said I can bring it up at
the fire company, we paid someone. We used it for a fire
call, the borough used for civil defense. Councilman Allar said
I just wanted to make sure. It all could be worked in there.
Councilman Myers said we haven’t used it for three years.
Councilman Snyder said the county abandoned their civil
defense. Councilman Myers said some of the members like
the siren cause if the pager doesn’t go off, at least there is
the siren. We haven’t used it for years, it was like between
3 to 4 thousand dollars to repair it. I thought I had one donated
from TMI. Councilman Noll said do we need to get it out
of there? I ask, you have contacts with other fire departments,
someone could take it down and use it for parts. Councilman
Myers said I’ll take it back to the station just to see what they
want. Get it down.
Hazardous Councilman Snyder said I did want to let council know that we
Mitigation did secure a copy of the county’s hazardous mitigation plan. That’s
Plan now on file here at the borough, if anyone needs a copy of that. Its
on CD. Anything else on EMA?
Mayor and Police Report
Info Mayor Sanford said I forwarded some information that I received
into the circulate file.
Directory Mayor Sanford said we also received disc of the 2008 1st Directory.
It lists all the non profit agencies. If you are interested.
Grant Mayor Sanford said I also have forwarded some information on
Writing a seminar on grants and grant writing sponsored by our representatives,
Miller, Gillespie. Its scheduled for October 23, 8AM. Councilman
Allar said at the fairgrounds? Mayor Sanford said yes. Councilman
Allar said we are already aware of that.
Mayor and Police Report(cont.) Page 40
COG Mayor Sanford said the COG is having a dinner on October 23. You
got copies at that. I went last year but I am unable to attend this year.
YCBA Mayor Sanford said I received information from the York County
Borough’s Association. I’d like to bring up service awards for
council people. I don’t know, Ron Crull, he indicated he is not
running anymore and I don’t know how many years of service
he has in. I would suggest you look that up and give him some
recognition before he leaves office. They are doing it in five
year increments. If he chooses not to attend the dinner, I think it
would be a nice gesture. The secretary asked Mrs. Crull,
forty five, forty years. Councilman Crull said in 1969 or 1970.
They put me in around 1969. I am not sure. Councilman Snyder
said you were mayor before then? Councilman Crull said no that
was after that, the couldn’t find a mayor. So I became mayor after.
Mayor Sanford said the cost for the dinner for that evening would
be $30.00 a person. Again I would suggest, that we should send
he and his wife to the dinner. The date on that is Saturday
November 1st. A motion to pay for Councilman Crull and his wife
to go to the dinner, to get recognized at the YCBA on November 1,
2008. The motion was seconded by Councilman Allar. All in favor.
Deadline is October 20th. The secretary asked that she be notified
by October 20th.
Elm St. Mayor Sanford said the speed enforcement sign was placed on
Elm Street for about a week and half. I did some research with
the department, that sign does have the capability of tracking
speed also however, when they tried to put it in place. Apparently
no one ever asked that question and they never used it. Its in
the process of getting repaired now that they found out it can
be used. Once its repaired and operational, they’ll bring it
back to town.
Nominate Mayor Sanford said a part of my position as police commissioner
representing the borough. I had the opportunity to nominate,
four officers that were involved in the house explosion on
East Prospect Rd. this past winter, for the Red Cross Hometown
Heroes award. They do it every year. They have won in the law
enforcement category. The presentation will be on October 30th
at a breakfast banquet at Wisehaven, I will be the presenter for that
award to them. We were in there Sunday and did some taping of
the story. It was Sgt. Fishel, Officer Mallette, Officer Buschman,
and Officer Damon.
Mayor and Police Report(cont.) Page 41
Dept. Mtg. Mayor Sanford said the annual department meeting of which
I’m also going to be part of, is scheduled for October 10th.
? Mayor Sanford said I did have a question for the borough, what
is the timeframe for trash placement in the borough. The secretary
said 6PM on Sunday for Monday pick up and by dusk the
following day to put away cans. Its in the ordinance. Mayor
Sanford said we are having a lot of problems. We talked about
appearance, it doesn’t look good. Councilman Noll said my
neighbor across the street puts it out Thursday afternoon.
Mayor Sanford said something to consider. You have to tell
me what to do, if you aren’t interested in pursuing the
ordinance. We are trying to improve the looks of the town.
I’ve given him names and names and names. Should we
keep sending letters? Councilman Noll asked do we have
any mechanism beyond a letter. Mayor Sanford said it goes
the next step to the magistrate, that’s where it falls apart from
time to time. Councilman Snyder read no person shall place
refuse or permit refuse to placed on the street, alley or any
public place, upon private property within the limits of the
borough unless its placed in the proper refuse container. Which
is one thing we don’t do. Cause technically, you aren’t suppose
to just put bags out there, its suppose to be in containers. And
shall not be placed before 6PM prior to the day of collection.
And the refuse containers shall be removed no later than 7AM
on the day after collection. Councilman Allar said what does
it say about the penalties? Councilman Snyder read any person
that shall violate any provision of this part, shall upon conviction
pay a fine not exceeding $600.00. Mayor Sanford said I know
we have greater things that are in fault in the borough, but you
have to tell me what you want me to do. Councilman Snyder
said the only thing that we have had any problem with was
businesses with being collected on a Monday morning, they
couldn’t get in to put out Sunday night. Mayor Sanford said
around the corner, sometimes its out, sometimes its not.
Mrs. Crull said Strobecks puts it out right, if they can do
it why can’t everyone else. Councilman Snyder said I’m just
saying that’s the only concern that we had to move the
date from a Tuesday to a Monday, that business had to come
in on a Sunday to put the garbage. Mr. Shearer said I put
it out Sunday night or come in early enough Monday morning.
Councilman Snyder said the only I remember complaining
was Yoe Auto Parts. Mayor Sanford said let me know.
Mayor and Police Report(cont.) Page 42
York Area Regional Police reported 24 calls, no accidents, 62 traffic citations, 2
misdemeanor felony arrests, 3 juvenile arrests. Administrative hours 36.47 and
service hours of 58.25. We have a current credit of 21.29. I would have to
believe that would be service hours, although I’m not sure. I did hear the other
night that an officer picked up a juvenile at Yoe Auto Parts and took him for
a curfew violation. I did receive two complaints the past month about noise
One was a dog and another was someone running equipment. There was
some problems with enforcement through the officer who took the call. I did
deal with that. Those officers were advised to handle it differently in the future.
Our ordinance and how to handle that, and hopefully that won’t happen again.
The secretary asked do you know what the increase for 2009 is going to be
for police protection and if not can you have it for the budget meeting?
Mayor Sanford said I do have that and I neglected it bring it down. The
secretary asked can you leave someone know especially if you don’t plan
to be here. Mayor Sanford said yes.
Est. The secretary reported we received notice that the estimated allocation
Liq. for municipal liquid fuels for 2009 at $19,522.49. But then it also
Fuels noted, that the payment may be less than the prior year. We also
Money received a notice from the one state representative it could be 4%
instead of 7%. I’m thinking it could be half.
Trick The secretary reported that trick or treat night is October 31 from
or 6 to 8PM. Please leave your porch light on if you plan to participate.
Leaf The secretary said on leaf collection, we will be going with Dallastown.
Collect They will be doing leaf collection like they did last year. No definite
date has been set on the leaf collection. But because of our meeting
being on the second Tuesday in November, I just wanted to make
everyone aware that if your neighbors start having leaves tell them
get them by the curb. And it will be like last year, where they come
around once a week and they’re bring up the leaves like they did
Office The secretary reported that the office will be closed October 22 and 24.
Mail The secretary said mail is in your mail slot, please make sure you get it
before you leave tonight.
? Councilman Myers asked did I bring up about Dallastown’s trick
or treat. The secretary said yes, I already spoke to Sam about it.
Secretary’s Report(cont.) Page 43
Councilman Snyder said we already set. The police asked us back
in August to try to set trick or treat the same night. So we set
back in August. Now only to find out that Red Lion and Dallastown,
set theirs for the thirtieth because of the football game. Mayor
Sanford said they felt it would be a safety issue with the traffic
being generated going to the game. That’s why it was changed.
Good plan, they bring in extra officers in that night and they
still will. Councilman Snyder said I told her, we already had it
advertised for the 31st, York Township is still the 31st. The high
school game, trick or treat is for 12 and under unless you had
someone in the family going to the game. Mayor Sanford said
the concern was the traffic going through both of the boroughs.
Councilman Crull said we will get better coverage that way.
Councilman Myers said with trick or treat this year the fire
company is going to have a truck out on the different street
corners, sit there and hang out and say hi to the kids. I am not
sure yet how many crews I’m going to have. I think they’re going
to hand out just at the fire company, kids come by the fire company
Councilman Snyder said you could hand it out, could be another
reason to have them stop by at the fire truck to get some candy in
stations throughout the borough. I could say, make sure you stop
by the fire trucks stationed throughout town to pick up their special
treat and get a good plug for the fire company. I call her the Friday
after the meeting and then it’s a matter of she puts it in, and I get
an email back by Saturday or Sunday. I review it and when it makes
it in the paper, and what makes in the paper. Its a lot different than
what she sends to me sometimes. I’ve already seen information that
I gave her a month ago that they’re just making it in. They’re doing
that so they’re not getting those press people so now that Community
Courier is going in for the evening and morning. She gets both the
evening and morning paper. Now they don’t have to have a correspondent
coming in for each municipality. Which is why they started doing it.
Councilman Myers said I’ll call let you know if we are going to have
it at the truck.
Budget The secretary said a budget workshop date needs to be set. The workshop
date is set for October 28 at 6PM. Councilman Snyder explained how
the budget workshop works.
Unfinished Business Page 44
Meeting Councilman Noll said we went to York Township, Councilman
York Allar and myself, and it was actually a very good meeting, very
Township positive. I think we came to some consensus on the paving
issues up there and will work with us. York Township said if
they can do anything as far as maintenance and equipment, help
us out, and things are available. They would like to create that
type of relationship with us. A couple things came out of the
meeting. We talked about the sewer agreement, if you have
given a date somewhere around 2012, 2014 for the current
sewer. Is that for everybody or is that just for us? Councilman
Snyder said that’s our sewer authority. Councilman Noll said
I wasn’t sure, we had mentioned something to them and they
didn’t know. Councilman Snyder said its not the Mill Creek
Users Group agreement. With the Mill Creek Users Agreement,
Yoe Borough set up its own authority. The sewer authority is
known as a lease back authority. That was only in existence until
the money was paid back or 40 years, whichever came first. The
money got paid back, but they never dissolved. Council never took
it upon themselves, to force them to resolve. That was one less thing
we had to worry about then. So they just mind their own little store
until statute date, where they can’t no longer. Councilman Noll asked
will that affect York Township? Councilman Snyder said no, theirs
they own their own authority, they’re not a lease back authority. So.
Councilman Myers said I was told by statutes, you can re up that
amount. Councilman Snyder said see, I never heard. The secretary
said I heard that too. Councilman Myers said they do a good job.
It’s one less thing we have to talk about here. Councilman Snyder
said I never heard any clarification. Councilman Myers is that
something one day when you are talking to Pete, you can ask
him about. Councilman Snyder said I don’t know, Rodney was the
one that originally brought us in. I found out about it because they
came to us that one time to sign on with an ordinance. When I looked
into it I found out it wasn’t a very good thing to sign up on. Here,
when I found out, its like, if the sewer authority is signing off on it.
Why are you coming to us to sign off on it? Because I did my
investigation, we don’t want to do this. The sewer authority was
saying we just signed off on it. Why are you coming to us, why
do we have to? That’s when I found out, its whats called this lease
back authority. Councilman Noll said I thought they were involved,
they were money holders. Councilman Snyder and Myers said
they are. Councilman Noll said that’s why I thought they were
involved in the same sewer authority. Councilman Snyder said
they’re part of the Mill Creek Users group but because if they’re
a lease back authority, I don’t know enough of statues or laws as
Unfinished Business(cont.) Page 45
the parameters of them. But because they’re a lease back
authority we get invited to the Mill Creek Users Group as
Yoe Borough as well as the sewer authority does. We don’t
send anybody because we feel that’s what the sewer authority
is for. Councilman Noll said I guess what the short of that is,
part of that group and stuff is, they’re willing to work with
everybody. They feel the same way. Councilman Allar said
they way they expressed it, there’s some sort of agreement
that we, we are the only municipality that did not sign it.
Councilman Snyder, said uh huh, that agreement that’s
exactly right. And that was the agreement, that when they
came to Yoe Borough and I said, why are we looking at this.
And I found out about the lease back authority, I can tell
you about that. We do not want to sign that, no way, no
how. And basically the nuts and bolts of that was, they
wanted to take away, the trunk line of Honey Run and that
portion, they want to take out of the Mill Creeks Users Group.
And not be associated with Mill Creek Users Group. But the line
was still going to dump into the Mill Creek line. So my question
was,well if all this sewage is still being dumped into the line,
then how we recalculated this I and I because there’s massive
I and I coming in here which is why we had no sewer capacity.
And what happened was, they said let’s take an arbitrary
figure that in a 1000 units on that Honey Run line, they would take
off gallons for each unit because that’s what the state said was an
EDU. Councilman Noll said right. Councilman Snyder said I said,
what if all the I and I is coming from the Honey Run trunk. And
I said our I and I is going to up because there’s less users associated
in with the Mill Creek Users but we’re still getting all the I and I
because your not taking care of all the I and I coming out of that
trunk. I said I would agree to this, if we put a meter right where this
trunk came in and for every gallon that goes into the Mill Creek
Trunk that’s what you take off from I and I. Councilman Noll said
they are talking about doing that. Councilman Snyder said they
said no thanks, they wouldn’t do that. Councilman Noll said I
think they are willing to talk about those issues. Councilman Snyder
said that was my whole concern, with that addressing the I and I
issue. Any I and I that’s now left, with the fewer users that is left
on the main trunk, we get a portion back. And our portion would
now go up. Say there’s 5,000 all together, and you take that 1,000
off, now you have that same amount of I and I that has to be distributed
among 4, 000 users which means our percentage now has gone up
and then we just lose our EDU’s again. That was my whole logic on
that. Councilman Noll said I think from talking to them, they want
Unfinished Business(cont.) Page 46
look at all the sewer agreements and they have talked about
putting some extra in, they are looking at resolving some of
the things that we’ve talked about. Councilman Snyder said
until that got resolved, cause our sewer authority signed off
on it. But when I actually, got myself up on what this
sewage actually was, read the agreement. Once I read that
agreement, I pushed very hard for the council not to sign
it. Yes, we are the only ones not to sign it. Councilman Noll
said I think they are very willing to talk to us some more
about that, they’re looking at doing some of the things. Get
together for the best way to solve the problems. Councilman
Allar said as far as extending that sewer authority, I wouldn’t
talk to Pete, I’d talk to their attorney. Councilman Snyder said
Mike Craley. Councilman Myers said I’ve got to see him about
something else, I can just bring it up to him. As matter of fact
that’s sometime this week. Councilman Noll said that was one
positive thing, they are very willing to talk about that. The
other things we talked about were development and future needs
around Yoe. I think one of the problems that we are really going
to have is, the piece of land owned by Orchard Hills. If they
develop it true industrial, back in that area, it was my thought.
They pretty confirmed, we are screwed as far as trucks and
other things. They will use that as a connector. Now, with
Tri Boro there, there is no other way in and out of that property.
Its pretty much land locked. Their authority obviously stops
at the municipal line, so if someone comes to them with something
within that use, they can’t force them to do anything. So that’s
something we have to be very aware of. Based on industrial
land back there. They’re suggested was, it could be rezoned
for single family houses. They said if we would want to talk
to Rexroth to see, if we could go in that direction. I don’t think
anyone knew, that, that land could be used for single family
homes. Councilman Snyder said yeah, I think that’s what everybody
wanted. Councilman Noll said their suggestion was that maybe
we should work altogether, and talk to Rexroth. This property
is very useful, willing work with us on that. They’re willing to
work with us on the forebay out there. Whatever type of process.
I thought that was very positive. The other things that came up,
I think the Yoe Drive was kind of a misunderstanding. They’re,
since it wasn’t adopted, they thought rightly or wrongly that
it was there. They actually did a traffic study and had a traffic
engineer look at the signs that they put out there. And the reason
the signs were put up, I don’t know how much they told, there
was actually an ordinance that was passed, with traffic engineer
Unfinished Business(cont.) Page 47
saying post Yoe Drive. Then thinking they had the whole thing, they
adopted an ordinance. They do have an issue, that we have to work
out with them, on that piece of road. The way that ordinance is written
and the way that traffic study, they have to post the entire Yoe Drive,
they can’t leave a portion out. So, they have either rescind their ordinance
or somehow work with us to see what we can do up there. They’re
wondering if we’re going to formally go after that piece of road or,
its something we have to think about so they can solve their ordinance
problem. I don’t know what anyone’s thoughts are on that but. Another
issue that they would talked about, they said if they would have known
that, that road at the point that they did all this that the center line was,
obviously had to take the traffic study and the ordinance. Its kind of
an issue of how do we solve this. Councilman Snyder said okay and.
Councilman Noll so anyways, its something that we need to take
a look at. So they were basically making a complaint to York Township
that there were parking and sight issues, we asked them to look at that.
That the person who has a complaint would be willing to come, its
a complaint about our residents not York Township. The other
things that we looked at as well, we talked a little bit about paving
on Yoe Drive and they’re suggestion there. We also talked about
a rec committee, for our citizens. They have a fully functional
rec committee, and they don’t want a regionalize the rec committee,
but they’re very interested with providing rec services beyond York
Township. So they would be willing and I would be willing to talk to
Deb to see how this would be done. But they would be willing to provide
programming rec wise, for our municipality. What that would all look
like and be and everything else, is a lot of discussion. My feeling is
we don’t have anyone here that could run a rec committee for what we
have, it might be worth looking into a little bit further. And our residents,
would pay the resident fee for York Township for activities. We may
make available, they want to do something down here to move an activity.
That’s availability, provide a facility which would be free of charge.They’re
a lot of opportunities for rec, types of things that we’d be getting. We would
probably provide some citizens for the rec committee. The gentlemen
expressed interest. It’s a long way from being close to having anything
done but I think its an option we ought to explore. The other thing they
brought up was apparently there is a salt contract with them that is due
to expire relatively soon. Mr. Shearer said April 2011. Councilman
Noll said all they said for winter, they’ll plow Yoe Drive. They aren’t going after us there. Councilman Snyder said Dana has been going up
there anyways. They’ll hit it when they go by. I do feel that there are
a lot of opportunities with them, we just have to open the dialogue,
not point fingers with them. I think they’re very willing. Councilman
Allar said they seem very positive. They said something about being
Unfinished Business(cont.) Page 48
part of negotiations with Yoe Borough in the future. It was a
positive thing. I got good vibes with everyone there. Another issue,
they have this stream stabilization project also using Growing
Greener money, which they’re not going to touch, because of
PCV contamination. Until they get some kind of Good Housekeeping
approval, that project is some kind of semi hold. I am going to
be talk to DEP. Councilman Noll said they have no interest in
joining the two projects together and there is, distance between
the two. Councilman Allar said they are saying its off limits with
that PCV. If I can get that thing broken loose, then it could very
well move along. The developments upstream have added to
the increase. Councilman Noll said they are very committed to
the money they put aside for the basin for next year. I think there
are a lot of positive things, we talked about a couple things there.
To make it beneficial to everybody. Councilman Allar said also
talking to them about recreation, if we have teams, they’re more
than willing to put our teams into their league. And they’re willing
to take all the information etc. Councilman Noll said I think there
are some really good opportunities and we’re going to meet again.
I wanted to recap where we are. Councilman Allar said I agree
with Seth, we are going to understand their thinking. Councilman
Noll said if we have any emergencies, with maintenance, they
are willing to step in too help us. Any questions. Councilman
Snyder said it sounds like a positive communication, all you can
do is keep trying to keep your lines open. Councilman Noll said
they are willing to work with us.
PEL Councilman Snyder said because we are doing this with codification,
we received this in our packets, I am doing this under old business.
This update from the Pennsylvania Economy League. Talking about
tax collectors and their compensation and if there’s going to be any
rate changes or methology changes, we will have to update them
prior to, February 15, 2009. With codification coming in there, if
we are going to do that, now would be the time to change that,
so we don’t have to pay for ordinance change. With Connie going
out of office, we would have new one coming into office, so I only
wanted to ask, cause I don’t know how this goes. I’m glad you are
here tonight, Connie. In a nutshell, I think a per bill plus some
compensation. Mrs. Crull said per bill for the per capita and the
occupation. The secretary said she receives 5% on real estate taxes
collected which includes fire protection. And the both the per
capita $5.00 and occupation is $10.00. She gets $1.75 per bill. Councilman
Snyder said I will say again with this time of year with budget and
Tax also think about it for codification, there’s a good example for collecting
Unfinished Business(cont.) Page 49
Collect $5.00 on a per capita tax that we’re paying a $1.75 plus postage
Fees/ and everything else. I personally think we should be scratching them
Change and figuring it out and adding it on to real estate. Because we’re not
collecting the fifteen dollars that we’re suppose to be out of there,
if you look at the list she presented at the beginning of the year of
the exemptions and exonerations we had. Which amounted to 167
as delinquents, exonerations and exemptions.Out of the total 715 bills.
If I am remembering these numbers right. This is the time to think
about it, I will be leaving that in the codification thing. Councilman
Crull said the only thing with getting rid of that, we’re not getting
the same people. All your apartment people are paying that, as they
aren’t paying real estate. Councilman Snyder said that’s true. That’s
what I said, this is also to talk about the collection and methodology,
do we want to do a percentage instead of per bill or. Councilman
Allar said you can do it based on unit. Councilman Snyder said
now’s the time, we only do this every four years. We are in a prime
time because we don’t have to do an ordinance, because we are
doing codification and we can change it, as long as codification,
is done in February. The secretary said Dan Shaw said there’s just
came back in September and they started there’s in the beginning
of the year. I don’t foresee us going into codification this year.
Can you do it by resolution, that’s how you did Connie’s compensation
before, right? Councilman Snyder said if the ordinance is set up to
do it by resolution, then we can do it by resolution. Think about it.
I just wanted to bring it up.
PEL Councilman Allar said speaking of the Pennsylvania Economy League,
had anyone worked with them before? Councilman Myer said I worked
with them on a fire study one time. Councilman Allar said the Pennsylvania
Economy League provides research, fiscal management advisory to
Pennsylvania state and local governments through an Early Intervention
Program. They provide professional assistance to local government in
providing a multi year, financial plan. Do financial forecasting and
review independent review of all municipal departments, review of
a capital program, capital budget and development of long range
financial program. The good news is there is apparently saved millions
and millions of dollars across Pennsylvania. Bad news, while they’re
non profit, they’re not free. It can cost $10,000.00 to $15,000.00. Good
news DCED has a grant. Bad news its matching. Good news they are
aware of our Comp Plan with the two boroughs, and we can probably
worked this all in altogether. For maybe a $1000.00 to $1800.00. So
based upon this, I’d like to have them down here to tell us what
New Business(cont.) Page 50
Pennsylvania Economy League is and what is available to us
for EIP. If it looks half way decent then have the other municipalities
be part. Councilman Myers said they did a thorough study and it
took a couple months. It’s a good program. Councilman Allar said
we know we’re going to have financial issues, whether we have
problems that they seen elsewhere, maybe they can give us some
tips. Councilman Snyder said I don’t think it would hurt to have
them down and at least give us some ideas. The worse that happens
we can tie it into this tri municipal things. Councilman Allar said
and we can talk about taxes and see if they can make a recommendation.
Mrs. Crull said they want to eliminate tax collectors. Councilman
Allar said then who is going to collect them. Mrs. Crull said they
want a county collection site. Councilman Allar said then they
will have to get everyone else to do that also. I think its much
broader. Reading this and talking to them, I think it’s a good
program .If its okay, I will contact. Councilman Snyder said
see what they have to say, if we don’t like what we’re hearing,
then we don’t have to go any further. Councilman Allar said
we’re going to have do something. Whatever we start now can
have affect in years in years.
Trans. Councilman Allar said the Transportation Advisory Committee
Adv. this is notice from PENN DOT. They’re doing an evaluation
Comm. of congestion mitigation strategies that are compatible with
smart transportation principles. PSAB is asking their members,
this survey, to be completed by September. This is the
handout. Councilman Snyder said I didn’t see it. It says
the council/mayor. The secretary said this is for September
handouts. So in any case, I think I’ll try to contact PSAB for
input. It’s a survey about traffic.
YCSW Councilman Snyder said I have notice from YCSW, next year
Fees the cost for disposable for next year will be $56.00 a ton.
Resign Councilman Snyder said we received notice from Gail that she
is tendering her resignation of park coordinator for the borough.
She’ll finish out the season with her last day being October 18,
2008. And that was the last date of the rental for the season
As an option to the borough, she is saying for a fee of $300.00.
Which would have to be due to her at her next invoice, she
would continue to receive park related calls, scheduling
rentals to compile 2009 rentals. Its based on a $35.00 per rental.
The secretary said she got paid for extra cleaning this year
also. Councilman Noll said York Township, asked how we
New Business(cont.) Page 51
did our rentals, the fact that they have full time people. The
secretary said she receives $40.00 a rental. The secretary said
$50.00 an hour to clean. She is asking for $300.00 on top of
that. She already has people who rented the park for 2009.
She needs to know when you are going to be in there next
year. She pencils in 2009 and send contracts out in February/
March. That’s the point I made several months ago, if the
park isn’t open, then she needs to inform these people so
they can find a place now to have their family reunion
someplace else. Councilman Allar said its going to take
two to three months to get approval, its up to Jason as
to when he gets it in and then we have to get approval.
We may lose this summer. Councilman Snyder said do we
want here to continue taking, for $300.00 for rentals
that we can’t honor. Says if you continue to use her
service, she wants her due to her on her next invoice.
I don’t know if we have an answer. Does anyone know
why she is resigning, is it from the church group? There
were some minor problems, there were times she had
to go back and clean up. The secretary said she told me,
that she was contemplating it, I think that was the icing
on the cake. Councilman Myers said I know what its like
Patty did it for ten years. Patty always went up at eleven
to lock it up. Councilman Snyder said its not the
best job. Councilman Myers said sometimes you had
good people to clean up sometimes you had a mess.
Councilman Crull said maybe you should find out if
that was the reason, if not perhaps its not worth it.
Councilman Allar said I would just hate to lose the
rentals. Councilman Snyder said we may end up losing
them because of the project. The secretary said you need
to get timeframe from Jason, its only fair to the people
that get it year after year. Councilman Noll said I will
get with Jason. Councilman Snyder said I’ll try to
give her a phone call and see why. Councilman Myers
said maybe we can do it in the winter time or fall.
Councilman Allar said we need a time line. Councilman
Snyder said the only other thing, I worry about is where
our money is going to go. DCED money should run out
July 1. We need it signed. All I can say with all this
that Jason is doing, we aren’t going to get anymore
DCED money right now. I was already talking, I don’t
know where he came up with applying for this DCED
money. Councilman Allar said that’s what we said
New Business(cont.) Page 52
last month. Councilman Snyder said he was suppose to apply for
the PEMA money, the hazard mitigation and check on the loan.
I was going to get into the DCED money. Councilman Allar said
I don’t know if it was written that way in the minutes. Councilman
Snyder said that’s the way it was. The secretary said he only has
PEMA and the local government on his report, the Growing
Greener application. We are 85% percent complete with the
Local Government/Capital Projects. That’s the loan program.
Councilman Allar said it’s a single application they’re both
under DCED. If you do one, you’ve got the other one done.
Councilman Snyder said that’s the DCED grant. Councilman
Allar said it’s the same application. Councilman Snyder said
what I found out we are not going to get any DCED money.
Ron Miller said he would commit $10,000.00, he was working
with me through Missy in his office. I told him we didn’t know
when we would find out about this land, how long would we
have, we need to put it in December. She was checking in on that.
I had to get our information from Mike Waugh’s office. I talked
to Mike Waugh’s office, don’t even waste your time, you’ve
got a grant from us. DCED will not give you another grant, until
your first one is closed out. It doesn’t matter if its from the house
side, the senate side. Until you have this one closed out. They
will not give you a second. They want to make sure you are doing
this one right. I even had it worked out with Ron Miller’s office.
The worse is we will work it out with the fire department. Come
up with a way. He said any way you want to work it, I will see
that you get $10,000.00. The only single item thing would be
with the fire department, and get with you and say you have
a $10,000.00 item to buy at the fire department. Instead of us
giving you a contribution this year, if you say you were buying
$10,000.00 worth of hose. Yoe Borough’s contribution is
$10,000.00 worth of hose. And that’s what we put in for the
grant. That frees $10,000.00. He said that was fine. Only come
to find out, you close out one before you get the second.
Councilman Allar said by the way, the minutes, it was your
motion, I would like another motion for Jason to apply for
the Hazardous Mitigation Grant and for the borough to apply for
the local municipal resources development grant. Councilman
Snyder said for Jason to do the one and for the borough to do
the other. This is one, I can do this, I’ve done it before. Its
spending good money after bad. Councilman Allar asked did
you clear that with him tonight. Councilman Snyder said no,
he’s already 85% done with. The money is already spent. I already
got your answer. The secretary asked can we still get the loan?
New Business(cont.) Page 53
Councilman Snyder said it has nothing to do with the loan.
The secretary said it says DCED Loan and grant application.
They may give you the loan but not the grant, is that what
you are saying? Councilman Snyder said we can start this
with the $25,000.00 for Mike Waugh. We need to make
sure where the engineering is coming into, we need to make
sure where to plunk money. The DCED is the most flexible.
We can start money tomorrow. Councilman Snyder said
the issue with her is, we are not going to make any decision
on the $300.00. I’m going to try to talk her into staying.
Does that mean that, we’re not looking at renting it back
to the church, if that’s what the problem is. The secretary said
we did not get a thank you note and you didn’t charge them
anything. Councilman Snyder said council isn’t perturbed with
them, but she may have been perturbed. Mr. Shearer said
she had valid reasons. Things were better in the end. Councilman
Snyder said when the preacher got involved. We’re passing on
the $300.00. And I’m going to try to talk to her about the issues.
In the meantime you’re going to check with about getting times.
We’re going to accept any rentals for now. Councilman Myers
said did we pay her extra money to clean up after that church.
Councilman Snyder said at times yes. Councilman Myers said
why aren’t we billing that church. Councilman Snyder said
we met with them twice. Mayor Sanford said is that documented
in the minutes that we bill them. Councilman Snyder said
I think we were to revisit the issue after the season, see what
we expended. Councilman Myers said we should bill them.
Councilman Snyder said we can look into it for next month.
Mayor Sanford said I’d like to see that documented somewhere.
Councilman Allar asked about what we charge for rentals?
The secretary said the average rental is $105.00 per rental.
She rents it May, June, July, August, September and some
October. People use the park in September so we need to
figure out when rentals are. Councilman Snyder said the
problem is she takes the rentals and then we find out.
Councilman Noll said we always tell everyone, we will
hold your reservation, but we will let them know by
January 1. Then January 1, if we decided work will begin
June 1. Talk to her first and see if she will stay. The
secretary asked her if she will wait until later as long as
its by the end of year. Councilman Snyder said I told
them it would go a long way, if you find a way to contribute
something because of our renovations. The two meetings,
the player involved, the player quit on them. Councilman
New Business(cont.) Page 54
Allar said how many kids were there? The secretary said they said
100 but ended up 70. Councilman Snyder said wait a month to make
a decision, and see if we can keep her on and find out what the problem
is and hold her off for a least a month. And everything she takes so
far is quantified. Councilman Noll asked did you raise those fees?
Councilman Snyder said we raised her fees because we raised the
rental fees. This came as shock to me. Councilman Allar said again,
that’s probably an issue or part of the issue. If it is the church, have
the church make accommodations. Councilman Snyder said the
contract is up. The other thing to consider here for budget time, what
if we know they’re going to be there everyday. We know if we offer
her $10.00 more, what if we say we’re out of the park rental business,
and we rent to the church for $3000.00 for the summer. We get our
money back, we only have to deal with one person and. Councilman
Allar said who locks up? The secretary said we suggested that they
provide a cleaning crew and they lock up. Councilman Snyder said
they would only provide a cleaning crew for themselves at that
point. This is another option to go too. If we lose her and if we
think its going to be difficult to replace here. 100 kids a day, five days
a week. They are responsible, they lock it up and clean, or we clean
it up and bill it back to them. As long as we see $3000.00, that is another
option. Councilman Noll said get a schedule and see what our time frame
Payment of Bills
Councilman Snyder asked if everyone had an opportunity to look over the
bills. We had additional bills: Verizon: $72.54, Verizon: $34.18, C. S.
Davidson $293.99 for Growing Greener, C. S. Davidson:$65.00 for meeting
attendance, C. S. Davidson:$19.11 for NPDES permits, C. S. Davidson:
$538.85 for detention basin dredging, C. S. Davidson $202.36 for
park improvements. A motion was made by Councilman Howett to pay
the bills with the additional bills. The motion was seconded by
Councilman Myers. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said bills paid.
A motion was made by Councilman Crull to adjourn the meeting at
11:44PM. The motion was seconded by Councilman Snyder. All in favor.