Thursday, October 29, 2009
Wednesday, October 14, 2009
Yoe Borough Minutes - September 1, 2009
YOE BOROUGH PG. 1
150 NORTH MAPLE STREET
YOE, PENNSYLVANIA 17313
The regular monthly meeting of Yoe Borough Council was held on September 1, 2009 at the Yoe Borough Municipal Building, 150 North Maple Street, Yoe, PA. The meeting was called
to order at 7:02PM by Council President Sam Snyder followed by the Pledge of Allegiance.
Council Members in Attendance:
Sam Snyder
Barry Myers(arriving at 7:09PM)
Tom Allar
David Naylor
Bruce Manns
Seth Noll
Others in attendance:
Sandy Sterner, Secretary-Treasurer
Dana Shearer, Maintenance
Steve Malesker, Engineer
Pete Solymos, Solicitor
Joiann Galiano, York County Planning Commission
Minutes
Councilman Snyder asked if everyone had the opportunity to look over the minutes from the
prior meeting. Any additions or corrections? A motion to accept the meeting minutes of August
4, 2009 was made by Councilman Manns. The motion was seconded by Councilman Allar.
All in favor. Councilman Snyder said minutes accepted.
Visitors
Councilman Snyder asked any visitors? Let the record reflect no visitors. Mr. Malesker
asked if someone does show up for the park meeting can we have them sign in. For our
record. Councilman Snyder said yes.
Councilman Snyder said well we have the flood plain ordinance at 7:30 and then another
public hearing at 7:45 so I guess Pete if you want to. We’re jumping around a little bit here
but.
Solicitor’s Report
Chronister Solicitor Solymos said on the fifteenth of September in the morning is
Matter the date and time for the Chronister matter. We should be getting formal
notice from the chairman of board of Board of Abritrators about that
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 2
shortly, I confirmed that today. I confirmed that with everyone
here whose involved. And that’s good for everyone here. So that’s
what it is. I’m going to have a preliminary meeting with Tom
as the schedule permits on next Wednesday which is the ninth.
As a preparatory prior to that.
Appeal Solicitor Solymos said the appeal to the decision of the zoning
Zoning hearing board. We have the appearance entered on behalf of
Hearing the Shertzers. That entry of appearance came in on Friday. The
Board secretary said the borough received it on Monday. I made
Sam aware of it too. Solicitor Solymos said I wasn’t going to
make copies of the record until we had true party for the appeal.
Otherwise the municipality and the zoning hearing board wasn’t
going to fight it, so. So we’ll be filing the record this week. And
I have fifteen days to do my brief. And then they have fifteen days
to respond. And then five to decide when we want it. We have
the option to ask for oral arguments, I think its money that’s not
well spent for municipality, we’ll do it on the briefs alone. The
clerk is going to read it, the clerk is going to research and send
a memo to the judge and say what its going to say on that particular
matter. Councilman Noll said I heard that it a domestic judge of the
branch of the? Solicitor Solymos said its appointed alright, once
both parties have filed the briefs, it is listed for one judge and
a judge is appointed to get that. A judge that is not on the domestic
side, we don’t have a domestic court. Every year a certain group
of judges are assigned for domestic court, juvenile court, then the
rest of the judges will take these appointments. You can get
anybody, you can get Judge Chronister who will write an opinion,
within six weeks, you can get other judges that will remain nameless,
it could take a year to do it. So. That’s basically it. I think you have
a real good one. Councilman Noll said you wait for the opinion is
written. Solicitor Solymos said if they take a chance and they lose,
that’s that. They can petition the court. I’ve never seen anyone try
to get a petition to let them go forward and be out those fines and
that stuff. That’s basically it.
Ordinances Solicitor Solymos said we’ve got the ordinance ready to go. I apologize
for the delay, it has been advertised and its ready to go. The advertisement
has been given to Sandy. The secretary said and after its adopted and I
have to send notice to the newspaper. Solicitor Solymos said, send notice
that it has been adopted.
Bid Solicitor Solymos said the last thing is you have a bid opening for a quarter
of eight for the park project. Mr. Malesker said its not a bid opening its just
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 3
Public a public meeting. Solicitor Solymos said I mean a public hearing on
Hearing that and you are going to award a bid. I was contacted about the bid
with regard to what was the low bid. And which was appropriate for
a low bid. The low bidder had the right to bid. The concern was the
second bidder did not include something which it should have, the
other six or seven did include. He was second without that bid,
for the lighting in the park. Everyone else had a bid in for the lighting
at the park. So I think we have legitimate low bidder with appropriate
bond. The law doesn’t require you to give it to the low bidder, it
requires you to give it to the lowest responsible bidder. But I understand
from talking to Steve, that these guys seem to be responsible. And
really that’s all I’ve got.
Uncertified Councilman Noll asked did we get anything together on the ordinance on?
Buildings Solicitor Solymos said we did not. And that’s because I have to get
together with you, and I did not. I apologize to you. When do we have
to adopt that? Councilman Noll said it’s not time sensitive. Solicitor
Solymos said I will give you a call tomorrow and try to set something
up.
Riedel Councilman Manns asked the family that was asked about the right of
way up at the dams. Solicitor Solymos said we have the right of way.
It has been filed. The secretary said the check is outstanding. Solicitor
Solymos said if you are talking about the dollar, the check is still
outstanding. We have a written valid agreement. Councilman Snyder
said do you need to follow up and file that. Solicitor Solymos said
it was filed. Councilman Snyder said I guess that is what it was.
So he doesn’t want to cash the check he doesn’t have to. Solicitor
Solymos said we tendered it, that’s up to him what he wants to do
with it. Maybe he wants to frame it, first check he ever got for land.
Councilman Snyder said I do have a couple things then, anyone else
have anything for the solicitor?
YCSWA Councilman Snyder said just a few things that we can clarify here
Contact before we get into the ordinance. Pete I guess was looked at or
For asked to look at a contract with York County Solid Waste for
Recycling recycling bins. And your? Solicitor Solymos said I had not problem.
Bins As long as the numbers. Councilman Snyder asked do we want
to make a motion to follow through with that? There was some
concern, questions that Sandy had, had. She was looking at the
25 gallon bin, she was going to check into if Penn Waste would
be able to deliver them. The secretary said no, York County Solid
Waste was going to be checking to see if they would deliver them.
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 4
Councilman Snyder said then the question would be, what did
we want on them, did we want to go with the 25 gallon container
and of course how many. There was some question that was
brought up two years ago, or last year, whenever we had our
garbage contract. When the quotes came in, as steep as what
they did, I made a comment that with running, it just doesn’t
make sense to me. Without getting into all the details of our garbage
contract. But it doesn’t make sense if all we’re paying Penn Waste
for is collection, that’s it. Because we’re paying our own tipping fee.
If they’re running two trucks per week and that’s the cost of
collection, you would think that paying $50,000.00 a year, $25,000.00
is the cost of a recycling truck and $25,000.00 is the cost of a normal
garbage truck. And we’ll forget about the extra truck for the totes for
the apartments. We’re keeping this simple here. But for the most part
we’re running two trucks in town. So I’m stupid, tell me why we can’t
save money if we decided not to get with recycling, eliminating one
truck in town therefore shouldn’t we be able to reduce our cost of
garbage by 50%. Give or take 10 to 20%, if you add another truck.
And low and behold, Penn Waste said no your cost won’t go down,
it will actually go up. Okay, so we got into a contest there. I still
think there is something wrong with those computations, I won’t
get into any specifics. I just think there is something wrong with those
computations. But in this instance. Were we thinking, before we go and
say yeah lets go and buy 600 recycling bins, was there a chance that
council was going look at with doing away with recycling next year.
At which point we may only want to go with a 100 just so we have
a stockpile of recycling bins. Councilman Noll said are we mandated
to have a recycling program, I thought there was a state law. Councilman
Snyder said there is, over 5,000 or more population. We’re voluntary.
So theoretically, it just, just on the face of it, it made sense that, hey
if our costs are based on solely pick up we should be able to reduce
costs if we eliminate one of the trucks coming through towns. He
didn’t like that. I do know that they make some money off of recyclables.
However, what they give us on our tip sheet, we’re only getting
credit for 79 tons per year. The secretary said 67 for 2008. Its going
down. Councilman Snyder said our normal, based off of our tipping fee
because that’s how you can break this down so easily. We pay our own
tipping fee. Based on our tipping fee, and that’s been constant for the last
ten twelve years, we’re collecting anywhere from 660 to 680 ton per
year. So that would be about a 12% recycling rate. Which would think
that would be higher than that. But again I would think, even if they’re
making money on those recyclables, and only getting 79 ton, they’re
not making that much money. I think there is some wiggle room with
this contract. Again we don’t have to be trying to figure that out tonight,
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 5
all we have to do is decide how many bins we want. As you see if
you are only ordering 100, the 25 gallon containers is $16.50 and goes
down considerably and its $10.80 if you are going to order 500.
Now according to this contract that Pete looked over, the county will
pick up 75% of this cost and we’re on the hook for 25%. Its just
a matter if we want to go with just a 100 until. Councilman Noll
asked are we out of recycling bins? The secretary said yes. Councilman
Snyder said that’s what prompted this. The secretary said we’re
completely out, we have buckets but not bins. The people that come
in here are not happy with those buckets. Councilman Naylor asked
how many people are coming in for them? The secretary said they’ve
been coming in about two a week lately. Mr. Shearer said the bins
are wiped out, they are starting to break up. Councilman Snyder said
maybe we just do fifty or one hundred bins, for the $16.50, get us
100 now until we determine what we’re going to do next year or.
Councilman Noll said is that just a one time deal with that, say next
year we say we want more, will they still match 75%? Councilman
Allar said they use it as an incentive? Councilman Naylor asked
when does our garbage contract end? Councilman Snyder said our
garbage contract ends next year. The secretary said October 31, 2010.
New begins November 1, 2010. Councilman Naylor said has anyone
looked into calling other contractors at this point? Councilman Snyder
said come January we’re going to be putting the word out. Councilman
Myers said last time we only had one bid. Councilman Snyder said
that was it and our cost went up. And he used the excuse of the cost
of gas, and the price of fuel and everything. Right now I would think
our costs should come down, and if you are using that as your excuse,
the cost of fuel has come down, 100% since it was $4.00 a gallon, its
$2.50 a gallon now. Councilman Naylor said if we buy 250 of them
now and we go with a new contractor next year do we have return
the unused recycle bins or are they ours? Councilman Snyder said
they would be ours. The only thing, do we want to spend the money
with the knowledge that since we’re paying, if we go with someone
else, will we seriously be thinking of doing away with recycling.
Because based on looking on the surface, we should be able to
save 50%, should. Now. Councilman Manns said what were the
reasons they gave? Councilman Snyder said that no, the recycling
accounts for only 6 to 7% of pick because there is such a mark up
on the recyclables that he sells. The secretary said but the bottom
fell out, of a lot of them too. Councilman Snyder said I think back
then I got rid of my aluminum cans for $.88 a pound, not I can
get $.31 last time I took them in. Councilman Noll asked are
we required to hand out bins? Councilman Snyder said not
required to, just is, if we are going to replace them for everybody.
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 6
We should even if Penn Waste doesn’t want to do it for us, we
can get Dana with ARD or somebody to drop off recycling bins.
Delivering isn’t a problem. My only thing is do we want to
commit, how many thousand dollars? The secretary said what
he is saying, let the people supply their own recycling bins,
we don’t have to supply them do we? Councilman Snyder said
correct. Which was what we were doing, we delivered the first
ones and after that. The secretary said we were charging 25% of
cost of purchase from back in 1994. Councilman Noll said I
guess my only comment is, if we get a 100 and sell them for
whatever we have to pay for them? The secretary said right.
Councilman Snyder said right now a bin is 100 is $16.50 a bin,
that’s what the people would have to pay. The secretary said
no, they would pay $4.00 and some odd cents. Councilman
Noll said 25%. If we’re going to get them and charge that, then
I don’t have a problem. The secretary said then they’ll use them
for the regular garbage, I’ve seen that in Dallastown. Councilman
Snyder asked so are we looking at the hundred here? I see heads
nod. It’s a consensus of council to get a hundred, keep it the
same color, same logo. The secretary said they only have two
colors, blue and green. I already told her we’re going to go with
green. A copy of the recycling logo is in the folder with the contract.
That says Yoe Borough Recycles. Make sure she has that. Councilman
Noll said we should look that we are not excluded from any programs
or monies, if we decide that, for the next contract. I don’t know who
will research that. The secretary said we file a report every year with
DEP to get money. Last year we got about $500.00 back. That’s the
only report I know that we get money from. Councilman Noll said
so that would be the only thing, if we get rid of the recycling program.
The secretary said you wouldn’t get that money. Councilman Noll asked
if there were any grants. The secretary said I don’t know about that.
Councilman Snyder said we’re going to have to look into it more. I know
when I contacted York County Solid Waste, I told them this idea off
the top of my head. I said believe me, I don’t want to be the one to
start, a backward slide on recycling, but I said tell me what I’m missing,
if all we’re doing is paying for pickup. And you have two trucks
coming into town, and its $50,000.00 a year roughly, shouldn’t we
be able to chop that down to $25,000.00 year if we eliminate recycling.
Because at this point, recycling is costing us money, if not making
us anything. Our ordinance is set up that we can sell the recyclables,
he is not buying them from us. We never went that extra step, so its
like, if we had to cut costs could we do this. And it was no no no, don’t
want to do that. I’m not saying I want to do that. Solicitor Solymos said
let me try to explain what the guy is trying to explain is. Why when
Solicitor’s Report Page 7
you have two children and you’re paying child support when that
first child turns eighteen your child support doesn’t go down by
50%. It goes down, if you were $100.00 a week it doesn’t go
down to $50.00 a week. It goes down to $80.00,$78.00, I have
to explain that to a client and they’re not happy about that. I think
that’s the mentality and you’ve gotten there. We’re doing so
much with the actual removal of the garbage, we don’t have
the one, that’s how they’re doing it. Councilman Snyder said all
I need is to explain that but they haven’t been able to do that.
Councilman Noll said some of the things are subsidized and gets
the trucks with grants, he gets money from each municipality.
It’s a fraction of programming. Councilman Snyder said at that
point cut us a break on. There’s more involved in that. A motion
to sign the contract with York County Solid Waste was made by
Councilman Manns. The motion was seconded by Councilman
Noll. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried.
Stormwater Councilman Snyder said I have one other thing here, we only have
Projects/ five minutes to get into it. Something to consider, Sandy brought
Fees it to my attention. She said it’s a funding source that Dallastown
to Help puts on their residents. Basically it’s a once a year fee of $10.00
Stormwater fee for stormwater issues that they charge every resident goes out
Issues on their garbage bill. Here’s their ordinance, I had her get a copy
of their ordinance. It just showed up, on the 31st, the idea would
be to turn it over to Pete, have him look at it. See if this would
something appropriate for Yoe Borough. Since its going on the
garbage bill, it would capture all the rental units. So it would be
a better way to raise funding, than say a tax increase that would
go on the property. This would hit all the rental units as well,
because of course we’re getting that garbage fee that is being
hit on every unit. What the amount would be is yet to be discussed.
Steve is going to have an update for everybody as we get into
engineering of our meeting with PENN DOT and how that way.
Thus the need to raise more funds. If you want to briefly get into
that, but the idea was do we want to have a motion to have Pete
look over this and see if he felt in his legal opinion if this is
reasonable. I don’t know of any challenges that Dallastown has
had. Councilman Myers said have him look over it, I don’t have
problem with him looking over it. Councilman Snyder said I see
nods of head, there is a consensus of council then. Solicitor
Solymos asked how old is that? The secretary said its on the
last page when they signed that, maybe two or three. Solicitor
Solymos said 2001. Councilman Snyder said they charge ten
dollars one time a year. So it would be a one time fee. Councilman
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 8
Noll asked is it advertised as such or is it put into garbage? The
secretary said its called stormwater fee and its listed like that on
the bill. On the garbage bill, they also have the sewer so on the
bill they have stormwater fee. The secretary said I don’t have
sewer so on the bill it says $66.00 the first quarter of the year,
$56.00 is garbage and $10.00 is the stormwater fee. Councilman
Noll said do you really think they use it? Personally I don’t
think I would look at it until after the budget process. See
how much that ten dollars can raise. Councilman Snyder said
that’s easy, you have 454 units that are billed out each quarter.
So that would be $4540.00 at ten dollars. We may be looking
at twenty dollars. And the only reason, just to give you a little
bit of what he’s going to be talking about. We had an on sight
meeting with PENN DOT, they looked at our stormwater
infrastructure, said that while they can’t say they kept it at the
same base, that they’re may have been more overlay than what.
This is going back to the complaint that we had from Bob Morton.
When he showed up. They said they are not taking responsibility
for anything. He did say that, they would come back with a jack
hammer, they do see where, at some portions there are openings
like that in our storm drains. They would come in and jack hammer
everything that was overlayed whole way along Main Street. Clean
that out so we get more in there. However it was also pointed out,
the ones on South Main, we have no collection point until we get
down to, Philadelphia Street, so we have all that run off. No
collection points on the other streets, Fourth, Third and Philly,
except on E. Philly, we do have some there. And that probably,
what is coming because of our system that is set, its underneath
the sidewalk. There’s no way for that water, it too much of
the force of that water, and its going to bypass it anyways even
if they do this jack hammering and they’re going to help out on
a minimal amount. So we have a tremendous water problem on
Main Street, is what this boils down too. We also know Dana
identified a sink hole that we have on Broad Street that we
briefly discussed, we haven’t looked into how much money is
needed to fix it. And we did discuss with PENN DOT, the spring
issue out on Main Street, which they’re not taking responsibility
for, they said that would fall back on the municipality. And
they’re recommendation is to capture it, in a pipe, and run
it under the sidewalk, and then from the sidewalk run it over
to this storm drain system that is already collapsing there on
Broad. So now you’re looking at replacing this and all the
sidewalks from Newton Alley the whole way down to Broad.
Just to get this spring water underneath and off of Main Street.
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 9
We know that, that spring as long as its flowing is going to
create an icing problem in the winter time if its allowed to
stay out on Main Street. Which they didn’t seem to be too
concerned about. So. Then it just went one step further in
my own mind, okay we have all these problems with our
stormwater system, Dana identified a funding source, by
the H2O grant which is only 50/50 matching. We already
know we have issues with our bridges. And its like, we’re
going to spend all our liquid fuels money to fix just Broad.
We still have these other problems coming in. So let’s do
this the right way. We already know, if you’ve been on council
long enough. Five years ago, we put for CDBG funding for
sidewalks on Main Street. Which we didn’t get, because the
sidewalks on Main Street are in deplorable state. So lets wrap
this all into one big project, do it the right way. Do it all at
once, our liquid fuels money will go twice as far. See what
other funding is available. Tom said that there may be money
coming in February for stimulus money. Try to get it together
as one package, stimulus money doesn’t come through, it has
come through then as H2O grant. We then have a $700,000.00,
$800,000.00 dollar project, where are we coming up with our
half. We got to borrow it. Councilman Allar said we have to
put the sidewalks in. Mr. Malesker said it is if we’re going to
do the stormwater. Councilman Snyder said it is if the stormwater
is under the sidewalk, we’ve got to replace them. Councilman
Allar said maybe ten or twelve feet but the rest of the sidewalk.
Councilman Naylor asked the pipes actually run under the sidewalk
the whole way down Main Street? Councilman Snyder said pretty
much. Councilman Noll said in the area that there is stormwater.
Councilman Snyder said not where we’re going to be putting it.
But you see as we’re going to be putting that it, we’re going to
be disturbing all the curbing, just to even put it in. I mean it could
be, the idea was we need to identify the project, we have a funding
source that’s out there, the H20 grant that we know is coming up.
This isn’t anything that’s going to be done over night. Okay but,
we have this problem we need to address it. At that point , the
borough could afford that 10 to 15 thousand a year payment. Because
we would have to take out a long term loan. This when looking at this
one ordinance, and Sandy brought it up, that would be a way to offset
the cost of that loan. That’s how the whole thing ties in together.
Councilman Noll said if you are going to do that, instead of going
through the whole hassle keep looking at the whole thing, just raise
taxes. I hate to see these fees, it angers people. If you are going to do
it be honest about it, raise taxes. Solicitor Solymos said understand
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 10
the way this is drafted, and I agree with this money goes into a
separate account. And its strictly for stormwater management,
that’s all. Specifically we advertise for that in this ordinance.
I wanted to see that. Councilman Snyder said if we have to take
out a twenty year loan and then we know the maintenance on
the dams is always going to be there. We’ve had storm water
issues that this could help. Councilman Naylor said a $20,000.00
gain a year for that loan. Councilman Snyder said I was thinking
$10,000.00 a year easily. Now and like you said, and this was
going to be a discussion under engineer’s report. So that was the
only purpose. Councilman Noll said I guess I don’t disagree with
trying to find new sources of money but, to me that’s one of
those sources like the head tax we just got rid of, do we truly believe
that is how we will spend the money, allocate it in the budget, raise
taxes and be done with it. Instead of making more work for someone
to collect these, go after the people don’t pay them. You have a better
chance of getting your money anyways through tax. Councilman
Snyder said that’s a distinct possibility too. Councilman Allar said
taxes how a way of coming back and biting you in the end. And
you are actually losing. You get to a certain point where potential
home buyers have so much that they’re going to spend. And for
every tax dollar, they expect a drop in their mortgage. They only
have so much to spend. How do get to drop a mortgage when you
get less for a house. If you do that enough all the time, the assessed
value are going to go down and they aren’t going to work with
that. They look at assessed value. You kill yourself again, you make
a few bucks up front and then lose it over a long haul. I think we
are tax enough. This is not a tax account as it as it is, let alone
taxes. Councilman Snyder said and that’s why I mean I could go
either way as to raising the property taxes, raising on this fee. That’s
why I was just having Pete just look it over. When I just discussed
with you, is something, that we’re going to be in the beginning
stages of, if we’re even turning dirt by 2011, I’d be surprised. But
we need to have a plan and say, yeah, save the infrastructure, we’ll
commit to it and then we’ll figure out. If this stimulus money comes
through, we don’t even have to worry about it. But we need to have
a plan as far as, as long as everyone knows that if we go through with
that project we need to come up with whatever the amount is going
to be. Because we don’t even know what loans are out there. You
can get a zero interest loan, maybe a two percent loan. Maybe we’ll
need to raise $18,000.00 maybe we’ll need to raise $4,000.00. I don’t
know its too far off. Councilman Allar said we need to have a plan
but I think it needs to more expansive than what you’re talking about.
This probably a good grant. We got to look at grants, we got to look at
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 11
new sources of revenue, we have look at economic development
which we’re not doing, we have to look dual use projects. Which
were some of things I tried to get into as far as the park goes.
Right now, we have money to decide if a particular project is
worth doing. We spend the money, the project comes in, we walk
away from it. We can have another project, the second project
makes money. And with the money we can got back and do the
` first project two to three years later. You know the one that wasn’t
going to make money. Some of the ideas, you don’t like
skateboarding fine, there’s batting cages. I talk one director about
dog runs. He is putting up dog runs. I didn’t know this, there are
vendors out there, that sell dog biscuits. I mean you aren’t going to
get rich over it, but its something. But it doesn’t cost much to put
up either. This is the way we have to look at how we’re going to
spend our money. If you can make $10,000.00 or $15,000.00,
$70 to $75,000, and the equipment has a life of 20 years. That’s
$200,000.00 to $500,000.00 dollars for matching money to put
in for storm water or whatever. Let’s say we’re not going to raise
taxes, we’re not looking at stuff like that. I was going to wait
until later but I’d like to bring the York County Economic
Development Corporation in here and do a little talk to see what
they do. We need a committee, maybe three people on council,
maybe a couple of business people, start thinking about it. What’s
our five year plan here. Its got to be strictly more than one grant
application. Councilman Snyder said okay, we need to watch our
time here. Councilman Allar said we go from one crisis to another,
that’s all I’m saying. One financial crisis to another. I think we
can do better than that. Councilman Snyder said like I said, I was
just bringing that up as part of, so we didn’t waste time to discuss
on some engineer issues.
Recess of the Regular Meeting at 7:40PM
Councilman Snyder said I’d like to recess the regular meeting at
7:40PM.
Public Hearing for Ordinance 2009-03
Councilman Snyder said I’d like to open up the public hearing for
Ordinance 2009-03, duly advertised for the adoption of requiring all persons,
partnerships, businesses and corporations to obtain a building permit for any
construction or development and the issuance of such building permits within
the areas of the borough which are subject to flood. And establishing penalities
thereof. Any visitors like to recognized? Let the record reflect that no one was
Public Hearing for Ordinance 2009-03 (cont.) Page 12
here to comment. Discussion? This is the latest and greatest revision, so it did
incorporate the comments from York County Planning. Of course we already
know why it didn’t pass last month. But this the last revision, so we’re still
going to meet our deadline. Do you know who, needs to send this where?
The secretary said I have a comment there, I don’t know, I am just asking
a question? Councilman Snyder said do you know who gets this, would you
be willing to send this, you can send it electronically whatever. The secretary
said do you need the signature page? Mr. Malesker said yes. The secretary said
we will have Dana bring it in then. Mr. Malesker said I can scan it. The secretary
said then you will take it with you then. Mr. Malesker said yes. The secretary
said I’d like to have that back ASAP because I’d like to get a copy to Dan Shaw.
Mr. Malesker said all I need to is to scan it and drop it off on my way home.
The secretary said that would be good. Councilman Myers said you can send
it to Dan’s email. The secretary said you could do that too, do you have Dan’s
email? Mr. Malekser said no. The secretary said I’ll send it to you then.
Councilman Snyder said any other discussion, I do see the effective date is
September 25, 2009. The secretary asked and there is nothing else we have to
do for the residents of the borough, to let them know anything about that.
Councilman Snyder said I guess the responsibility will be on Dan and our
third party contractor. Basically its going to restrict all the building in the
flood plain. Its that strict. We have no choice as far as what it is. A motion
to adopt Ordinance 2009-03 was made by Councilman Noll. The motion
was seconded by Councilman Manns. All in favor. Councilman Snyder
said so be ordained.
Adjournment of the Public Hearing for Ordinance 2009-03
A motion was made by Councilman Myers to adjourn the public hearing
for Ordinance 2009-03. The motion was seconded by Councilman Manns.
All in favor. Councilman Snyder said hearing is adjourned.
Public Hearing/Presence for the Park beginning at 7:45PM
Councilman Snyder said I’d like to open up the public hearing for the park. Mr. Malesker
said it doesn’t need to be an official public hearing, it was advertised that the public
would be here to add to it. That is one requirement of the CDBG. Mr. Malesker
said there is no one here from the public. Mr. Shearer said we had those nice signs.
Councilman Snyder said I already recessed the regular meeting, so we’ll hold a public
hearing, it was advertised as such. Okay the floor is yours. Mr. Malesker said I don’t
know if you guys have been able to see the bid pack yet. Basically the whole bid,
the base bid is $167,961.00. If we add the money for co-stars which is $60,955.00.
That gives a total project cost of $228,916.00. Budget for this project is $170,000.00.
So what we have here is $58.916.00 of work that we basically need to do, eliminate
before the contract is awarded. And yes we’re willing to contribute more money to
Public Hearing/Presence for the Park beginning at 7:45PM(cont.) Page 13
the project now from general funds. But now what we can do to award the project is
award the contract, based on the base bid without the alternate, it would be on the
base bid and then deleting a few items to get to what we have in the budget. And what
I suggest is, we would delete the overflow parking lot that would eliminate $7360.00,
we would eliminate 158 feet of the storm water, that would be the inlets that we
showed on the plan by the basketball court. I can open up the plans and go over this
if you want me to, to show this to you. That would eliminate $5688.00 for storm
water pipe. Two inlets would be another $3160.00. And the manhole which would
be $1360.00. And then if we deleted the park pavilion renovations from the contract
that would take another $42,100.00 out. For a contract cost of $168,808.00 which
is within the budget of $170,000.00. And we also talked to CDBG, they did say
say that this would be a very good time to ask. I would suggest I know that there
is some money in liquid fuels, you could use the liquid fuels money to pay for the
storm water work that would be out on Philadelphia Street, since that is public
street, liquid fuels money would be available to pay for that portion of the storm
water work. And I also attached a direct letter of what I would send to York County
Planning about if Yoe Borough is willing to put in as many as $10,000.00. It doesn’t
have to be liquid fuels, the amount is your choice also. It could be liquid fuels,
general fund whatever you choose. They would then come back and let you know
how much money they would put in. I don’t know how much that would be. But
sounds like, they are willing to put something back into it. The intent would be
to add the pavilion back in. With the additional money. Councilman Naylor asked
what percent would we have to come up with ? Mr. Malesker said we don’t know.
Councilman Myers said it would be gamble, we would hope to get the rest of it.
Councilman Snyder said basically what he is saying, if we would commit, come up
with a figure tonight, say commit $10,000.00, he’s going to try to get the other
$32,100 from the county. If they say, we’re only going to give you fifteen, then
its not enough to do that. Councilman Myers said they have balances that they
can do that. Councilman Allar said we have to be very careful, we have a lot of
street projects, that liquid fuels won’t stretch. With sink holes and all that, we’ll
be into the capital reserve fund. That isn’t that solvent. This is not life and death,
if streets start opening up and swallowing houses that’s something. Councilman
Myers asked Sandy how much do we have in liquid fuels? The secretary said
around $75,000.00. Councilman Allar said it looks like we might be using that
in the next couple months. The secretary said and then you’ll get another 18 or
19 in April. Councilman Snyder said or, we could just dip into the capital reserve
fund which I mean in all honesty. I don’t have a problem of putting $10,000.00
in. And seeing if the county is willing to put up the rest. Again we’re stretching
$10,000.00 of our own money, to get hopefully $30,000.00 in return. There’s
no guarantee, they’re not going to pony up the money and we don’t spend any
of it. If they’re willing to give us the rest so we can put the pavilion back in.
I look at this way, last time when we bought, I think you were even on then,
when we bought our truck, we took that out of our capital reserve fund. That’s
how Ron had us do it. Now we’re saying with all this money in our liquid
Public Hearing/ Presence for the Park beginning at 7:45PM(cont.) Page 14
fuels, unfortunately has to be used for equipment. We can’t use $30,000.00 that
we now buy a truck because we took it took it out of capital reserve before
because we didn’t have enough money in our liquid fuels to buy the equipment.
Now we have excess money in equipment, we have the money in the liquid
fuels now we don’t need the equipment. We know we have money to cover
equipment in liquid fuels its safe to take $10,000.00 out of the capital
reserve knowing we have money in the liquid fuels to cover equipment.
Councilman Allar said I’m not sure if we’re safe, every month there seems
to be a new project. Councilman Snyder said we can’t use that money anyways.
Councilman Allar said that’s our decision anyways. Councilman Snyder said
no the state says you have to keep so much on equipment. Councilman Myers
said really. The secretary said I have to keep that on the yearly report. Councilman
Myers said really. The secretary said since the day of time. Councilman Snyder
said and that’s why, there was such a discussion when Ron had us take the money
for the truck out of our capital reserve fund because I think we had at the
time we had $16,000.00 or $18,000.00 in our equipment fund. It wasn’t enough
to buy the truck. Councilman Allar said you are saying we have to have a certain
percentage. Councilman Snyder said its like $30,000.00 right now. Councilman
Myers said what is the percentage on, the total you get each year. The secretary
said it keeps accumulating, over the years. That is set for equipment. When you’
bought that truck you probably should have pulled that out of there. Then you
have started from the bottom and started all up again. Mr. Shearer said we
used some of it for. The secretary said for the salt spreader. Councilman Allar
said so we can’t spend it. The secretary said you can spend it on equipment.
Councilman Snyder said if we have say $90,000.00 in liquid fuels the most
we can spend on roads is like $60,000.00. Councilman Allar said so if we
can’t spend how does that help us. Councilman Snyder said because we now
have that for equipment, I’m saying that frees up. The reason, our capital
reserve, we don’t have to tap into capital reserve for equipment. Councilman
Myers said I use mine all the time. The secretary said on your report, you list
it on the page. Its an allotment. Councilman Allar said how can you say its
for equipment? Councilman Snyder said its not, which is why, I’m saying
we either have to take it out of liquid fuels for road work or if we want allocate
$10,000.00 so we can get more money from the county, we don’t want to
take it out of liquid fuels because we know we have this other project coming
down the road. We can afford to take the $10,000.00 out of capital reserve
because we have $70,000.00 for capital reserve, that we now know doesn’t have to go for
equipment because we have money set aside in liquid fuels. Councilman Naylor
asked so if we ante up this $10,000.00 and they don’t match the other $31,000.00,
can we? We are just showing we’re willing to. The secretary said then we don’t
spend it. We have to check with Gerry Wagner and make sure everything is
copasetic. Councilman Myers said take it out of liquid fuels. Councilman
Snyder said I’m saying, I said, he made the recommendation that since there
are storm water improvements involved we can take the money out of liquid
Public Hearing/Presence for Park Beginning at 7:45PM9(cont.) Page 15
fuels to pay for it, that’s how we can come with the $10,000.00. Tom said,
now we have all this liquid fuels money that we’re talking about, what
happens, we may now want to take it out of liquid fuels. That’s when I
said you may not want to take it out of liquid fuels, its safe to take it out
of capital reserve because we now have money for equipment in liquid
fuels which is why we were building up our capital reserve anyways which was to buy
equipment. Councilman Allar said if we take it out of capital reserve now, and let’ say
a calamity happens, maybe its not connected to roads it something else and we need
money can we also take it out and use that with it. Councilman Snyder said capital
reserve yeah. Councilman Allar said okay, so its money we spend now, we we’re
not going to have a future plan. Councilman Snyder said correct. Councilman Allar said which means we could be walking on thin ice. Once we suck that up, that’s not a lot of money,
guaranteed we got the next two three year of tax increases. Because we have no way of
keeping it going, not at the same rate. Councilman Snyder said well, the capital reserve
is replenished each year with $10,000.00 cable franchise fee. If we take it out now, we’re
going to be replacing it. Councilman Allar said these projects, are big buck projects.
Councilman Snyder said I wasn’t planning, there’s no way capital reserve is going to
touch that project that we discussed earlier. Its not even going to touch it. Is why you
are going to be looking at a long term loan for something like that. And try to keep
the payment in a manageable amount. One of other ways to make the payments,
there is a lot of ideas out there, $10,000.00 from a storm water fee is spread out
among everybody, not just home owners. We have also have your $10,000.00
capital reserve or $10,000.00 coming in from cable franchise. Right there is
$20,000.00 a year that can go towards the payment. I guarantee you give me
$20,000.00 on a thirty year note, you’re looking at borrowing 3, 4 million
dollars. You’re talking some big money there. Councilman Allar said I think
the taxes should be the last resort. Councilman Snyder said oh yeah, that’s
why I didn’t want to confuse this issue with that issue. Whether we like it or not,
because we’re cutting out the park pavilion, that’s one of the buildings that we’re
going to need to do upgrades to it. The electrical problems are still going to be
there. The kitchen problem is still going to be there. So we’ll put a couple thousand
in each year to try. Councilman Allar said its not so much where we’re taking it, I’m
just saying money that’s gone, for whatever emergency, we’ve been having bad
luck. Insurance is going up, in another year we’re going to have trash collection
come up, we have no idea what that’s going to be, its certainly not going to go down.
Police goes up every year, another 6, 7, 8 %. These are givens. And the revenue,
I don’t see anything coming in on the revenue side to match any of it. Councilman
Snyder said, the only thing Tom is, I agree with everything you just said. But
we’re not the only municipality in that same boat. I mean if our tax rate is 2 ¾
now, and that’s mid range from where the other municipalities are. Everyone
is in the same boat that’s already there at five mills, and we’ll have to raise ours
to four mills. Its still going to be relevant. Its not like Yoe Borough is going to
be the only one that has to raise taxes and everybody else won’t, so therefore
no one is going want to buy Yoe Borough like York City. York City is way off
Public Hearing/Presence for Park beginning at 7:45PM Page 16
the mark, they’re mileage rate is 25 mills compared to another municipality.
Councilman Allar said we’re actually number three, because we’re affiliated
with the school district. You have to look at the total cost. We’re the highest
in the district. Don’t forget, their revenue keeps going up, because they
have properties that are more attractive and more modern, not 100 year
old homes, not so much row homes. So probably gained more appreciation.
The price appreciation is going up 1 to 2% that’s more revenue. Councilman
Snyder said right now, that’s what I’m saying, if we take ten thousand out of
capital reserve, we know, its done on a quarterly basis, within the year its going
to be replenished. So that’s not an issue, that’s money will be replenished.
Councilman Noll said a third option would be to go to low bidder contractor and
possibly remove other items to get the scope that we want. Mr. Malesker said
yeah. Councilman Snyder said I think at this point we would need in order to see
what the county is willing to do with us, say yes the borough is willing to commit
$10,000.00. And again if they come and say they are only willing to give us
10, well that wouldn’t be enough to put in the pavilion anyways,we’re still going
to have to work with them and work with the contractor. I mean maybe at that
point you go and say well will keep the overflow parking or something. We don’t
know what we’ll end up with, all we need to do is as a council, is one award
the low bidder minus the outlines the engineer gave us, so we’re within our
$168,000.00 budget. And then also as a council say we are willing to commit
$10,000.00 and have our engineer go back and see what he can do with the
county. That’s basically what we’re here for tonight. Councilman Noll asked
where are we coming in the budget so far this year? The secretary said we
are doing pretty good. Councilman Noll said is there any surplus? The
secretary said I don’t want to say that yet. The secretary said number one our
beginning balance was stated wrong when we started off the year, we started
lower than what we had. Taxes have been good. Municipal service fees have
been good. And everything else is about the same in line so far. Right now
I’m looking real good. Like I said to Sam, the last quarter of the year you have
your most money going out. You have insurance bills, you are finishing up
on a lot of other things. Like you said, I did transfer the money from DCED
which was $25,000.00, I did one transfer into the general fund checking account
to pay the bills for this month. Left a lot of the money in the savings account,
its not getting much interest, I thought that would be better to do it that way.
You have about $8500.00 left in the DCED grant, of which I’m sure Steve
will have additional bills for engineering and design until the end of the
year. I’m sure that will be eaten up very quickly. Councilman Allar said
the $27,000.00 difference between the $195,000.00 and the $168,000.00,
that’s engineering. Mr. Malesker said engineering is not part. Councilman
Allar asked where does the $27,000.00 show. Mr. Malesker said you
are talking about the grant money, there is the $25,000.00 from DCED
for engineering, so I subtracted that out with the $170,000.00. Which
would be the $70,000.00 grant from DCNR and the $100,000.00 from
Public Hearing/Presence for the Park beginning at 7:45PM Page 17
CDBG. Councilman Allar said you are subtracting $25,000.00 out. Mr. Malesker
said from the $195,000.00. Councilman Allar asked and why are you subtracting
that out? Mr. Malesker said because the engineering money is not going towards
the structure of the park. Councilman Allar said that’s what I said, that’s mostly
engineering. Mr. Malesker said its 100% engineering, that $25,000.00. Councilman
Allar said now the engineering that we paid you already, and Jason over the
last two years. The secretary said yes, I just transferred that money into the
general fund. I’m up to date on that. Councilman Allar asked and that’s going
to cover everything from now until the final inspection. Mr. Malesker said yeah,
that’s the hope. The secretary said $8500.00 is left. Councilman Allar said we
can live within that figure. Mr. Malesker said yeah, we getting this last month
we put a lot of time on the park. You didn’t get that invoice yet. The secretary
said no I didn’t. Mr. Malesker said I hope, putting out for bid. Councilman Allar
said I’m just making sure we don’t have any surprises along the way. And we
have another $10,000.00 in engineering. What items are you recommending
eliminating again? Mr. Malesker said to get within the budget of $170,000.00,
it would be the over flow parking lot, a portion of the stormwater, which
would include two inlets and a manhole and the pavilion. Councilman Allar
said to everything within the budget. Mr. Malesker said yes, then the hope
would be to add the pavilion back in. Councilman Allar said its not a lot of
money but $2400.00, do we need a horse shoe pit. Mr. Malesker said that’s another option too.
Councilman Allar said that could pay for some wiring, okay I just wanted to know.
Mr. Malesker said Joiann is here. We’re talking about we’re basically $58,000.00
over budget. So we’re talking about items to delete to get within what we have
budgeted. And then we mentioned that we talked with York County Planning and
that we are going to submit that letter for additional money. We’re just saying
basically that Yoe Borough would commit another $10,000.00 and I know you can’t
say a figure but I guess the chances would be good that there would be get some
money, additional funding for the park? Ms. Galiano said its difficult right now,
it would have to go in front the commissioners first. Would this request be part of the
overall improvements? Mr. Malesker said part of the pavilion, said yes it would
to towards the pavilion. Councilman Snyder said so then, that would help sell
that figure. And again, we don’t have to come up with what its actually excluded or
included, like we were trying to say do we actually need the horseshoe pits. All
we need to do is accept the recommendations of the engineer which gets us within
our target figure of $168,000.00, we know we need to eliminate $58,000.00 from
the project. Then we need to commit, if the borough wanted to, $10,000.00 to
go back to the county, to say okay, we’re coming up with $10,000.00, county
please help us, we would like to get everything. Maybe we could start and ask
for the entire $48,000.00 left and break down exactly what we have and if they
have the funds available,which she is saying, hopefully we get, if not hopefully
they won’t break up individual projects and they’ll say well because the park
pavilion is still ADA compliancy we’ll give you $32,000.00, the parking lot we may not give.
Hopefully we’ll still get some. Basically all we have to do tonight is accept that
Public Hearing/Presence for the park beginning at 7:45PM Page 18
low bid with the recommendations of the engineer to get us within our cost figure.
Then commit, and if the council would want to commit more than $10,000.00,
we could but then go back to the county and say, this is where we are at, how
can you help us. Until the county gives us a figure we wouldn’t know where to
start. We could say we give $10,000.00 and they say we can only give you
$5,000.00, well maybe, that wouldn’t be enough to do the pavilion. Councilman
Allar said we also have that $5000.00 of in kind services. Councilman Snyder
said yeah, and I don’t know how that would work. Mr. Malesker said I’m
not sure what that $5,000.00. Councilman Allar said its $5000.00 that we don’t have to match
that. Councilman Snyder said it may be a way to get our over flow parking
back in. Councilman Noll asked you can use it as part of the RFP. I am not familiar
with Legend Construction, do they have to give a company profiles. They are a qualified
bidder. Mr. Malesker said we have actually worked with Legend Construction before.
Mitch Seitz owns the company. Councilman Noll asked what the size of the company is,
how many people do they have? Mr. Malesker said I don’t know that. We have worked
with them before. Councilman Noll said the only reason I bring it up, normally I wouldn’t be
as concerned but if its 2 guys and pick up truck and we have the December deadline. I want
to be sure the company can perform. Two, have they accepted the bid, I never say the
package that went out, did we obligate them for any penalty like it has to be done by
December 15. Mr. Malesker said there are liquid damages. Councilman Noll asked
starting at what date? Mr. Malesker said after December 31. Councilman Allar asked
did you give them a start date, estimated start date. Mr. Malesker said they have a
completion date, they won’t have a start date until its awarded. They have a date that
it has to be completed by otherwise they will suffer liquid damages. Councilman Noll
said with us moving dirt and everything else around, has county conservation given
our blessing, do we have to do that? Mr. Malesker said there is less that 1/10th of
an acre disturbance, so you do not have to submit a formal plan. Follow the best
plan of attack, which we are showing on the plan. Nothing formal has to be submitted
to the conservation district. Councilman Noll said they technically beside from the
building permits, they could start tomorrow. If they were so inclined. Mr. Malesker
said we would have to get the paperwork together, but yes. I have actually met with
them and talked to them about this, they actually have some ideas on how to bring
the price of the pavilion down too. And I don’t know any of the details on that, but
they had some options that basically we could have an award session and meet with
them to discuss those options. Assuming that we put the pavilion back in. Councilman
Noll said just want to make sure everyone is comfortable, again, just I not sure
how familiar everyone else is. My biggest concern is about the deadline, if you feel
comfortable I’ll take your professional opinion on that. Mr. Malesker said yeah,
that was the first question. Any time we get a bid, I always call the low bidder, and
talk about these type of issues with them. And the site work is actually very minimal.
And the things that affect getting the equipment in the park equipment in because
that’s what the DCNR grant. So that stuff has to be done. Councilman Noll said
part of that, is to see the schedule, the documents, RFP’s. I just want to make sure
we have all that covered. Councilman Myers said I make a motion we go with the
Public Hearing/Presence for the park beginning at 7:45PM Page 19
lowest bidder provided that all the documents are in place, based on the base
bid, we aren’t awarding the alternate. Its based on the base bid. With
the recommendation of deleting out projects as identified by the engineer.
Also to recognize that Billet Construction was a non responsive bid. They
did not bid on the park lighting, all the other bidders bid on the park lighting
that’s what I discussed with the solicitor. The solicitor agreed that we could
not accept their bid since its not a full bid. Councilman Snyder added they
were second bid, we are accepting the lowest bid and accepting his
recommendation and then recognizing Billet Construction was non
responsive. Mr. Malesker said the deleted items would be change order
number 1 would be the deletion of those items I outlined in the engineer’s report
to get with them for the $107,000.00, so the contract would be awarded
to Legend Construction for $168,808.00. The motion was seconded by
Councilman Manns. Councilman Noll abstained because my corporation
submitted a bid for this project. All in favor: Councilman Allar, Councilman
Snyder and Councilman Naylor. Councilman Snyder said let the record
reflect that the majority of the vote was in the affirmation. Councilman
Snyder said the second issue about the ten thousand dollars, we then
have, is that first all, $10,000.00 is that what council wants to go with.
Have the engineer, go back to the county explain the situation what we
cut out, and try to get the full amount so we can still do the project and
hopefully, you know how to word it. If they aren’t going to give the
full amount at least not break up projects. Mr. Malesker said yeah,
the over flow parking would be something that if it has to be dropped
that’s fine, the priority, the number one priority would be the pavilion.
Councilman Snyder said and then the overflow parking lot, I don’t think
we need the extra inlets anyways. Mr. Malesker was talked about that
out there anyways. Councilman Snyder asked what else were we
deleting out? Mr. Malesker said well the storm pipe and manhole.
Councilman Snyder said okay. So then we’d be going for $42,100
and 75 so we’d be asking them for like $39,000.00. Is that what
council wanted $10,000.00, I mean at this point until we know
what the county is willing to give, we don’t have determine where
its coming from. Councilman Myers made a motion that we give
$10,000.00 from the capital reserve fund. And that we review the
vote again, after the county response is in. Councilman Manns
seconded the motion. All in favor: Councilman Snyder, Councilman
Allar, Councilman Naylor. Abstaining is Councilman Noll for the same
issue. Councilman Snyder said let the motion reflect that it was
carried on majority vote. Are you going to make that request for
the county? Mr. Malesker said yes, I have a draft letter with the
engineer’s report that I will be sending to Joiann tomorrow. The only
thing I didn’t have, I wasn’t sure what your contribution would be,
so we will put that in and send it of. Councilman Snyder said hopefully we will
Public Hearing/Presence for the Park beginning at 7:45PM Page 20
know something fairly soon. Councilman Myers asked Steve, since this is a grant,
does everything have to go through the contractor or can you stay other stuff out
of it. Let’s say tree removal, if we would take tree removal out and have our
own contractors do it, take it out the grant, can we do it? Mr. Malesker said yes,
tree removal isn’t part of the DCNR grant or CDBG, the tree removal I thought
was a pretty decent price. $2555.00 to remove 25 trees. Councilman Noll asked
if I may ask, a copy of the spec package and does the borough have a copy? The
secretary said here it is. Mr. Malesker said yes, I brought a set with me, you are
welcome to it. Councilman Snyder asked anything else you need, you know what
you need to do then. Councilman Noll said you want to set up a meeting with the
contractors. Councilman Snyder said I was just going to say, depending when we
hear back from the county, since that was dropped out of this, that can actually
be negotiated with Legend, that wouldn’t be subject to the December 31st deadline.
Because technically that is outside of the scope of this parameter. Mr. Malesker said
well there’s still. Councilman Snyder said as long as we don’t screw up the DCNR
grant. Mr. Malesker said I think the intent would be that if its added back in, it would
follow the same contour, be added to the contract. It would be added as a change
order. Councilman Snyder asked so it would be still? Mr. Malesker said it would be
still be under the same contract so subject to the same conditions. Councilman Snyder
said I wanted to make sure we weren’t shooting ourselves in the foot. Councilman
Naylor said like we added to the project. Councilman Snyder said yeah, we added
work to the project. Mr. Malesker said it was part of their original bid so its not
adding work to their original work. They bid on that original work. We deleted it
and then added it back in. Councilman Snyder said and what Tom was trying to say,
the DCNR grant was $70,000.00 as long as you gave $70,000.00 matching funds.
So we got a $100,000.00 from the county which was covering the DCNR grant of
$70,000.00, it didn’t have to be just money, it could be in kind contributions or
something like that . Kinsley already donated, a figure of $6000.00, $6200.00 of
in kind services or contributions that they already gave. In fact technically, that
can go towards that $70,000.00 which means there we should have an extra instead
of $30,000.00 of free money with the county that should give us $35,000.00 of
free money. Was your figuring back in, say the county only gives us $40,000.00
but we know we need that extra $7500.00, okay. So there is a way to work that,
to get that $5000.00 in, in kind contribution from Kinsley credited toward the
DCNR that frees up the extra $5000.00 from the county of the original $100,000.00
of which point we can through that back in. That is what he was trying to say.
Councilman Noll said $4532.50. Councilman Allar said plus didn’t we pay something.
Councilman Noll said you paid for materials and I don’t remember what that
was. The secretary said we also have when we took stuff to the landfill, we kept
those bills separate and we kept the bill for the new water heater separate. I have
the folder back here with the rest of the park stuff. Is there a way, let people know
about those in kind services. We pay it back to us out of the $70,000.00? Councilman
Allar said no I think we put it in the documentation we send in. The secretary said
I want to make sure that is done, I don’t have any contract with DCNR. Councilman
Public Hearing/Presence For Park beginning at 7:45PM Page 21
Allar said they are going to look at any combination to get to that $70,000.00.
The secretary said as long as I understand what I’m doing. DCNR when will
we get the money and how is that done? Mr. Malekser said they just want to know
the award date and since its officially awarded, we’ll call that tomorrow. The
secretary said okay, they will send us a contract like DCED did with the money?
Mr. Malesker said yes. Councilman Snyder asked so if you could with your letter
to the county, have it in about that extra $5000.00 of in kind contributions so
that actually frees up another $5000.00 that they may be willing, you know what
I mean, instead the borough of giving $10,000.00, we actually have $15,000.00 that we gave
them. The secretary asked is this a bill that we need to look at? Councilman Noll said
this is the labor for the project. Mr. Malesker said this work hasn’t been perform yet?
Councilman Snyder said it has been performed. We should get credit with DCNR.
The secretary said both of them are donated dollars. Councilman Allar said a lot of
that has been already been done. Mr. Malekser said but, that is what their bid for
the work that needs to be done, now. They took into account all the work that was
done, they took into account. This is the work that needs to be done. Councilman Allar
said I feel more comfortable because Seth knows. Mr. Malekser said Seth did the
specs for the bathrooms and pavilion. Councilman Allar said there was nothing left
to do then. Councilman Noll said they have the boards in there, plumbing. There’s still.
Mr. Malesker said they will have a schedule of values to give us, that will breakdown
all of your money and where its going. What they bid on, they did not give a price for
work that is already complete. What they give a price on was work that they will
complete. Councilman Allar said I just want to make sure that we aren’t putting
money in their pocket for something already accounted for. Mr. Malesker said if
there is toilets in the garage we want to use, we will tell them that there are toilets
that we want to use and then they will delete that from their schedule of values.
Councilman Allar said I just had a wrong understanding, I thought we only had
6 to 8 thousand left to do. Mr. Malekser said they do have some ideas on savings
of money because there, they had mention that they had to rip out the floors.
There is a lot of work that has to be done. And we can meet with them to see what
we can do to trim that. And I told them that since we didn’t that portion of the
project that we will have to have Seth and Kinsley involved with those changes
to that. Since the contract was awarded, we didn’t discuss price anything that
would donated. Councilman Allar said there is one thing that I’m disappointed in,
that’s not on here, and that’s cameras. We have a system that has expired its useful
life. And we have areas that are not covered. This seemed to be the golden opportunity.
Mr. Malekser said but that was discussed before that, that was going to be separated
from. Councilman Allar said we are going to suffer from that with insurance claims,
you know what I’m saying. If there is some more ways of saving some money, then
put it in, that would be higher priority. It’s a safety issue. Councilman Noll asked
about setting up a kick off meeting. If anyone from the borough wants to be on it.
Call a job meeting. Mr. Malekser said you, I think for sure and that’s up to the borough.
Once we send them, let them know that the contract has been awarded, send them
a notice of award then they will be willing to meet very quickly. Councilman Noll
Public Hearing/Presence for the park beginning at 7:45PM Page 22
said I think we should meeting next week at the latest. Councilman Snyder
said I think we discussed as construction goes on from day to day monitoring
activities, Dana would probably be the point of contact. Councilman Noll said
we want to establish job meetings, to check progress. Have some dates.
Mr. Malesker said they need to nailed out before notice to proceed. Councilman
Noll said right, that’s why we should have a kick off meeting and get any
final questions answered. Mr. Malesker said and of course we can’t have that
until here back from the county to know what our final budget is going to be.
To know what we have to add back in. Councilman Noll asked how long is that
going to take? Mr. Malesker said I’m not sure. Councilman Noll said it’s a thirty
day process, now we’re in October. Ms. Galiano said it will be presented to the
county commissioners for their approval. Councilman Snyder said we can get
these guys started on the other stuff that we know we’re doing. Mr. Malesker
said right. Councilman Noll said that’s what I’m saying, I don’t want to hold
off until we know for sure, we need to press immediately. Mr. Malesker said
what we can do is, get a schedule of values for those things. Ms. Galiano said
you can schedule pre construction early too. Since you have the requirements
on this job. Mr. Malesker said I don’t know if you and Deb would come down
we need to have an official time to set down. Councilman Snyder said you’ll
take care of setting that up then. Mr. Malesker said sure. The secretary said
just make sure that, Dana and I talked to Gail Koller, the park rental coordinator,
the last park rental is October 10, 2009. So if they begin to work on the
bathrooms prior to that, you have to leave someone know so portable rentals
can be put up there and also keep in mind, that pavilion is going to be used
probably more in October than the outside because of cooler weather coming
in. But October 10th is the last park rental. Its always on the weekend, so there
is no problem that someone is up there working during the week but keep
in mind there will be people using the facilities until October 10th. Mr. Malesker
said I’ll have to check with the contractor. Councilman Snyder said well
considering we dropped the pavilion off of the scope of work initially and
we’re going to negotiate it with the county to get it in. Councilman Naylor said that will take that long
to get in. Councilman Snyder said that will take that long to get that squared
in. The secretary said if they are beginning to rip out the bathrooms you have to let
Dana and I know, we have to have them. Councilman Naylor said did we consider
not renting out anymore because of this going on. The secretary said I made an
executive decision not to rent the park out anymore this year. Mr. Malesker said
which is good, Legend is going to be a construction sight, they don’t want the
liability. The secretary said I hope they know to put the tapes up and all that, they
have to think of safety. People are going to be walking in there, they might want
to play on the old equipment too. So they have to remember that. If they are
going to hit the bathrooms first, please let someone know so we can get
portable there. Mr. Malesker said that is something we will discuss at the
meeting. The secretary said I just wanted to let you know that its being
actively used in September until October 10th. Mr. Malesker said we will
Public Hearing/Presence for the park beginning at 7:45PM Page 23
need to contact you when they start. The secretary said so we can get Knapers or
someone up there with portables and Gail is aware that construction is going
to start. Councilman Noll asked how does next Thursday at roughly 2:30, look
at that as a target time. Mr. Malesker said I don’t think I have anything at that
time, but I have to go back to the office and check. Councilman Noll asked
who all from council would like to be part of meetings. Councilman Myers said
I’ll help when I can. Councilman Allar said you can notify me. Councilman
Noll said probably need more than one council member. Councilman Snyder
said okay. Before I close out the hearing for the public meeting. One other thing
I did want to get on public record. It was duly advertised at the Fire hall on
the signage. I appreciate that cooperation of that. We do have a photograph of
that for the record, that it was duly advertised. Councilman Myers said actually
I have picture of it. Councilman Snyder said Dana took a picture. The secretary
said and Steve has a copy of it and he forwarded it to Joiann. Everyone has
a copy that needs to have a copy. Councilman Snyder said so it was duly advertised.
Anything else?
Motion to close the public meeting at 8:37PM
A motion was made by Councilman Myers to close the public meeting at 8:37PM.
The motion was seconded by Councilman Naylor. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said meeting is adjourned.
Reconvening the regular meeting at 8:37PM
Engineer’s Report
August 19 Mr. Malesker said let’s start with the meeting with the Army Corps.
Meeting Tom and I met with Mike Danko from the Army Corps and Jack
With Army Hill from DEP that was on August 19th. So we met at Mill
Corps and Creek Preserve. They walked in the creek, they walked over the
DEP place. And decided that is very good sight for the wetland mitigation
area. He gave his okay on using that. Also he called to let us know,
that they are going to reopen or reissue the original permit for
the basins. And he is going to put conditions on that permit to
allow the mitigation to take place. So it’s a good solution. Councilman
Allar said even before we get the letter, he’s given us a verbal
for the removal of the trees, bushes and all the woody growth out
there. I mentioned it to Dana. We can start on that right now, if
he contacts the sheriff’s department. When the sheriff’s department
can come in. Then we can get the letter. Mr. Malesker said they
don’t have any jurisdiction over removing vegetation. Councilman
Allar said but he wanted to run it by his boss. Mr. Malesker said
he wanted to run it by his boss on removal of vegetation but he gave us
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 24
the green light. Councilman Allar said DEP has the jurisdiction and
I had already cleared it with DEP. Hill had already cleared it.
Mr. Malesker said that just means they cleared it for vegetation,
not sediment things like that in the stream. Anything above the
stream bed. Councilman Noll said so with the same, I have a letter
that can be put into the file and then sent. Councilman Allar said
a copy should be sent to Danko and Jake Romig. Councilman
Noll said what that is, York Township, we went back for the
second time and they agreed unanimously that it was a great
idea and they agreed. The secretary said I need the address to
send it to. Councilman Allar asked do you still have the email you
sent it. The secretary said I can’t email it, I don’t have a
scanner. Councilman Allar said Jake’s is on the proposal he gave us.
I don’t have Danko’s. Mr. Malesker said I have Danko’s email
address. The secretary said unless you want to scan this and bring
it back. It would be Jake Romig and Mike Danko. The thing to
respond back to us, at yoeborough@comcast.net, that they received
it. Mr. Malesker said sure I can do that, I’ll copy you and have them
reply. Councilman Allar said while you are doing it, you might
as well send one to Hill too. All we need is one person not in the loop,
and then we have another month. Councilman Noll said its my understanding
that everything has moved forward with the York Township portion, they
are moving towards a proposal for the bid package. Probably want to touch
base with them, Mr. Miller from York Township. Councilman Allar said
actually its going to have to be between Steve and Jake and Miller because
with the Corps of Engineers and the mitigation plan, the mitigation plan
looks awful like the specs for the contract. So its my suggestion, I’m
not going to get into the engineering aspect its your job, it seems like
if you and Jake can do a draft of this, get it by Danko, and Danko’s gives
us an okay on that, then they can finalize that and get with the York
Township contract. We don’t what put pressure on the contract
and find out from Danko doesn’t like the mitigation. Councilman Noll said
I’m not sure of what Miller’s timeline for that is. Councilman Allar said
last time he told me, before the end of the year. Now if you looked at,
you did get the whole thing from the Corps of Engineers including all
the attachments. Mr. Malesker said right. Councilman Allar said it makes
some references in there as to what we need to incur. Mr. Malesker
said when we met up there, I talked to Jake and we’ll just work between
us. And we can do what he’s not comfortable doing. Councilman Allar
said because now, we have a bit of a time crunch. Mr. Malesker said
right. Particularly with the township. The township is ready to go with
contract, they’re not going to wait for us. Mr. Malesker said Jake has
it all. Councilman Allar said Jake can give a call in there, walk it through
and find out from Mike what they’re looking for. Mr. Malesker said yeah.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 25
Councilman Allar said that’s definitely what we need to get us there.
Councilman Noll said what points do we need to get us there for
the project? Mr. Malesker asked for the mitigation or for the flood
capacity upstream? Councilman Noll said the flood capacity upstream,
will we need a new set of specs? Mr. Malesker said actually that is
an item of discussion. Now that we are this far, we can of course,
will be contingent of getting the letter, but once we get the letter we
can start putting a spec book together. Getting this thing ready to bid.
At first what we need to work at, is where the dump site is going to be?
So that’s another item, that we need to discuss. I did talk to Jeff Shue
about that, and what he wants, is basically for to get approval from
the council here to approach Red Lion Borough Council to proceed
with creating a permitted site for disposal of the material that we
dredge out. Councilman Allar said I personally have no problem
with that, have to look at it the entirety, he’s their engineer. In the
meantime, I’ll be dealing with some of the people on council and the
mayor and so forth. Preparing them. Councilman Snyder said then we
need the authorization for C. S. Davidson to proceed with the bidding
of the capacity restoration. Mr. Malesker said to get the bid documents
ready on the project and get it ready to bid. A motion was made by
Councilman Allar to have C. S. Davidson to get the bid documents
ready on the project and get it ready to bid. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Mann. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion
carried. Councilman Snyder said and then also for authorization for
approaching Jeff Shue to approaching Red Lion Borough Council to
see about permitting a dump site. Mr. Malesker said that way, the
council will know that he came back by Yoe Borough, that we are
proceeding forward on the project. Councilman Allar said and you can
inform him of whatever timeline is going to be. Councilman Allar
made the motion. The motion was seconded by Councilman Noll.
All in favor. Councilman Snyder said the motion carried. Do you need
to write a letter and put it on our letter head and you can sign it? Mr.
Malesker said but if there is a problem on Red Lion on their end, we
are still going to get these documents together at some point it does
have to be bid but we can wait until next year to officially advertise
it, in the meantime we can get everything together if we want to bid
it this year. Councilman Allar said we can put in some kind of option
like the dumpsite on contingence. Mr. Malesker said well having a
specified dumpsite that close to the construction site is going to be a
big advantage and really. Councilman Allar said if its written up for
both contingences. Mr. Malesker said nothing is written up now.
Councilman Allar said I know but it will be. Mr. Malesker said then
we can have that as, the Red Lion as the number one option, then
the alternate someone else, then bid the price proposed and then
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 26
award the bid based on. Councilman Snyder said we don’t proceed
at bidding it out that way, we had it come in. By the time we open
its going to be the January time frame anyways. We can see what
Jeff Shue comes back with. Mr. Malesker said we can have this
ready to bid in October, we can start construction this year.
Councilman Allar said we have the money for this year. Mr.
Malesker said if we do start this year, the only issue we would
have would be getting the seed to grow at that time. Councilman
Snyder said then hold money back. Mr. Malesker said either hold
money back, or have it in the performance bond that they have
to come back and seed.
Park Mr. Malesker said we went over the park. Are there any other
questions or concerns about the park?
PENN Mr. Malesker said I didn’t include the meeting that we had with
DOT PENN DOT in here but we did meet with Ned Harms, he was
Meeting the construction inspector on the job SR 214. Like Sam mentioned,
they may have put on more profile back than they took off but
there is nothing we can do about that. So if the curb reveal changed,
they’re not going to go back and mill things out. Its going to stay
what it is. What they will do is, where the mill off tops of curbs
like at in front of Seth’s house and at a few other locations, they
are going to come back and patch those. I don’t know if they’ve
done that. Mr. Shearer said I don’t think they’ll do that until they
come back and do ramp work. Mr. Malesker said the bottom line,
it’s a cosmetic thing. Mr. Shearer said techinically I guess the
project is not officially closed. That’s why the trailer is still up
there across from Tri Boro, they complete the ramp work so they
can satisfy it. Mr. Malekser said there would be items on the punch
list to close out the project. Councilman Noll asked did they remove
the signs? Mr. Shearer said they did remove all those signs they
had, the reason they were waiting, they had a pre final on the paving.
Mr. Malesker said so we also discussed the storm water issues that
Sam has talked about and then Sam found out about they do have
to come back and install new handicap ramps at all the intersections
in the borough. So if we do a storm water project, we would essentially
ripping out the handicapped ramps that they just put in so we thought
let’s see if we can talk to PENN DOT and instead of putting those in
make them part of our project and just have them give us the money
and put it towards our project. PENN DOT thought that was a good
idea, unfortunately they can’t make it happen. Too much bureaucracy
involved, there are federal funds involved, so the borough would have
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 27
to apply for the money and it just wouldn’t make it happen.
Councilman Allar said I think you kind of knew that. Mr. Malesker
said yes but we wanted an answer so. That brings us up to the
possibility of the H2O grant to do some storm water work along
with that the bridges. You ask me last month to get an estimate together
for the engineering for the permitting of the bridges. Before I got to that,
I did find that there is money available, a little over a million dollars for
bridge work. It could be done right now. So I called county planning and
mentioned there two bridges, and he made some calls and found out
from PENN DOT that these bridges are not eligible for that money because
they are less than a twenty foot span. Therefore they’re not on the
National Bridge Inspection list. So they don’t qualify for that money, for
a bridge to qualify for that stimulus money it has to be over a 20 foot
span. Councilman Allar said Church Street would be close to 20 feet?
Mr. Malesker said the closest one would be the bridge up stream.
Councilman Allar said county bridge. Councilman Snyder said so that
brings us back to the original discussion that started before the meeting.
Mr. Malesker said so I didn’t put any effort in to getting an estimate to
put the permits together because with no money what is the point of
getting the permits so I didn’t waste any engineering time to get those
numbers together. It will have to be done at some point, we will need
include those with the H2O grants. Some work needs to be done on that
creek which should qualify. Councilman Snyder said so back to the original
discussion, whether we want to try to do something or not. I did take
a series of four pictures just for your record more than anybody’s. Cause
I’m sure anyone in town knows what Main Street looks like in a rain.
This was just a small rain on August 19th, we had 1/3 of inch in forty
five minutes. Basically you can see how much, all I did was take four
shots stay up at the intersection right in front of the house, coming
down from the house and two cars trying to pass. It shows the safety
issue that’s involved because the water pulls into the grass area,
directly across the sidewalk, out to about six foot into the street and
it does the same thing on the other side. What happens is when you have
two cars trying to pass one another, there both trying to ride the center
of the street because you can see the water that’s being picked up as
they’re trying to pass. That was a small rain. We only had that one
small, that was small storm that we had, lasted about forty five minutes
max. That’s the least that we’re looking at. When we have a real heavy
downpour, talking an inch in a hour with those two year storms that you’re
talking about compound that. The other week when Dana, month or
so, when Dana was talking about the flooding, yeah, it was what Bob
Morton was talking about. At that time, the water which you see cascading
at this telephone pole was easily up as high as the back of that car. That’s
how high up there, it comes right up. You can see it cascading right there.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 28
And what we’re doing is eroding away all these telephone poles and
all that there. Councilman Allar said however high that is go down to
Main and George and its twice as high. You’re going to see, cars
going back and forth. Councilman Snyder said exactly, what they
determined and Steve sort of agreed with, the fact that we have the
very first, I’m looking at this backwards here. The very first catch
that we have is right here at the corner of Main and Philly, and then
they’re under the sidewalk. You can see just on these pictures that it
cascades right up over it, it doesn’t even go in to the storm water
system. The first drains that we actually have out in the road is below
my house there is one on the other side at that open swale in between
167 and 171. And then other side of the street at Newton, there the first
ones that we actually have and they’re trying to catch by that time
everything coming down. So I guess we have to make a decision here
soon. Dana is going to be on our butts, with that sinkhole on Broad.
I personally hate to see us spending $40,000.00 to $50,000.00 on a
sinkhole and that uses up all our liquid fuels money and still have the
spring issue on Main Street. This problem isn’t going to get any
better. I think we just have to bite the bullet, we can go around with
Steve, we can identify the system and basically come up with a project.
And say this is what we want to improve this is where we want to take it
from point A to point B. We’ve identified a possible funding source for
the stimulus money. Doubt it will come through. We still have issues with
permitting because PENN DOT wasn’t too happy that we’d be tearing
up sidewalks and ripping up their new street. Which we said, hey look,
we told you about this before you put the street in, and you didn’t listen
to us. That is not our fault. Mr. Malesker said, they said that they’re
policy is once they pave a street, they won’t let anyone do anything in
that street for five years. Unless its an emergency situation. Councilman
Snyder said we already had the issue with the sinkhole, we had the
issue with the spring which should be dealt, they want to tie it into the
same box, it should be dealt as one project anyways. If you replacing
all that sidewalk from Newton Alley down to Broad. You may as well
make it all one project. Councilman Allar said you’re saying we have
all the projects and put it into one grant. Councilman Snyder said one
grant. Councilman Allar said including those say George and Main.
Councilman Snyder said right here is our storm water outfall. If you
recall when we did the storm water for improvements there on Mason
Alley, five six years back. Jeff identified that pipe coming back from
Yoe Auto Parts back to Wendy Tyson’s house, if that pipe in bad
repair. I pulled this out from our records because, I’ve been the MS-4
officer working with C. S. Davidson, right here is our current system.
And you can see that, that pipe work where we just showed in, it
would start right there at Main and George, those pipes are connected
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 29
right there where the old railroad track is, take in that pipe that
goes to the new section that we just put in and basically replace
from those new inlets the entire way up, which would take
care of the sinkhole, take care of the spring and continue it up
to the borough line and put in appropriate inlets at Third and
Fourth. And move those ones out at Philly, out into the street.
Also take care of two bridges, cause that is all storm water and
we have one big storm water project. Councilman Allar asked
how bout the gabions? Mr. Malesker said and the gabions.
Councilman Snyder said yeah the gabions. Mr. Malesker said
and keep in mind, to qualify for the H20 it’s a minimum $500,000.00
project. Councilman Snyder said and if we did this we’re easily
looking,I figured Steve could, right here we have, we already have
these figures in hand, so we know what storm water inlets we’re replacing.
Three, four years ago, we did that grant for the Main Street sidewalk,
and that was going to go from where we stop the last time to the borough
line. So Jason put them in, they would have those figures as far as, how
much it would cost to replace sidewalk. We’ve already been working on
the bridges, how many years ago, we have cost estimates on the bridges.
I think we could probably poll the figures together relatively quickly and
easily to determine this is the scope and this is what we’re looking at.
Councilman Allar said I think we need to go back to Dana’s idea about
looking at the system, sizing. Councilman Snyder said and we could.
Councilman Manns said look at the hydrology, to figure out what we
need. Councilman Naylor said if we are looking to replace the system
from the lowest point, which is what we should do, start at the lowest
point and do it from there. Councilman Snyder said and that’s basically
what we’re doing. Councilman Naylor said so if we are going to replace
it, we should spend the money to investigate the system that’s there now.
Councilman Snyder said the only thing, investing in rest of the system,
would only, if you look at this, it is that area there and this area here which
wouldn’t be affected with what we are doing. Councilman Allar said but in
this town. Councilman Snyder said it still needs done. Councilman Allar said
we seem to find, five six from time to time. Councilman Naylor said you
send a camera up those pipes and. Councilman Allar said and there is terra
cotta pipe and who knows what. Some of them are big. We found that one
on E. Pennsylvania. I don’t know. Councilman Allar said Barry you’ve been
here longer than I have, if that’s not an issue. We don’t need to do it, I know
Dana brought it up. Councilman Myers said I don’t think it would hurt to
do that. Councilman Naylor said have it cameraed and see what we’re getting
into? Councilman Allar said one thing it might support the grant itself, we
can pick and choose what we want in the grant. Councilman Snyder said the
worse that happens maybe we can use liquid fuels money to do the cameraing.
I mean lets face it, when we are looking at a project this size, we know we’re
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 30
going to end up borrowing money. That’s a given. Because the H2O
grant is a 50/50 match. Are we going to get the biggest bang for our
buck for at least going in for that? At that point, we only have $60,000.00
available for liquid fuels so if it takes $20,000.00 to camera the system
that comes, is that an expendable amount out of liquid fuels? Mr.
Malesker said I would think so, I would have to verify that with Gerry,
can’t see why not because its. Councilman Naylor said Dallastown could
do it. Mr. Shearer said Dallastown only has the smaller camera, they don’t
have that tracker model. Councilman Snyder said understand that when we
get into this main system, up Main Street, that tracker model probably won’t
work. We got involved in that when we were looking into the Wendy
Tyson deal. Because that is an old stream bed, you’re talking rocks and
everything else. Councilman Naylor said if it doesn’t have pipe to go through,
those cameras don’t fair too well. Councilman Snyder said you know what
we’re looking at, that’s what you’re going to find upstream. We may have
not have to camera this system if we know where we’re placing them. That
would be decision to do. Mr. Malesker said well, you know, there are some
other laterals tied in, we would need to know that anyway, where it does
tie in. Also the sump pumps, that are potentially tied in that could be tied in
also. Councilman Allar said would it be to our advantage to involve anyone
else, the water authority, any other municipalities, sewer. Dallastown
get involved since they have part of the upper part of the hill. Mr. Malesker
said its worth, if you are going to do something to tie in everything.
Councilman Allar said everyone has their own agenda, with the amount
of money, it could be put together to get work done. Councilman Noll said it
pretty much be just Dallastown that would pick up on Main Street.
Councilman Snyder said they probably think we will collect since it
goes down past the borough line. Mr. Malesker said I don’t think, being
their engineer I know that, that’s not of their dealings. Councilman
Allar said this is something that Jeff and Steve, could feel out with
Dallastown and Red Lion. Councilman Noll said I doubt if you would
get Red Lion. Councilman Naylor said it wouldn’t have any bearing on
them. Councilman Noll said Red Lion has always said we’re at the top
of the hill, you are at the bottom. Councilman Allar said you never know
unless you ask. Councilman Snyder said I would think if you stuck with
the Water Authority, the sewer authority, and Dallastown Borough just
as a feeler. I don’t think they’re going to put anything in just because
they’ll say, we’ll just let it run you’re going to collect it at Fourth Street.
The first thing is to identify the players, so put feelers out to the water
authority, sewer authority, Dallastown Borough. Councilman Allar asked
you aren’t at least going to say something to Red Lion? Councilman
Snyder said I think since its our infrastructure, I don’t know why Red
Lion would. Mr. Shearer said if you are going for H2O money, remember
that can be used on several projects and they do not have to tie together.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 31
Councilman Allar said and it also compliments the comp plan.
Mr. Shearer said that could. Councilman Snyder said if they have
projects in town of their own because we’d be going on for a
H2O. Councilman Noll asked and it doesn’t have to tie in?
Mr. Shearer said you can have projects, it doesn’t have to connect.
Councilman Allar said the other thing to keep in mind is that
the Dallastown Yoe Water Authority is full of mine fields, the
system was not in the best of shape when they got it from Red
Lion. And they are doing what they can to upgrade but if we
are going to do this, we have to have hard negotiations, so
money doesn’t get sucked up in the bottomless pit. Councilman
Snyder said okay, identify the players, the second thing to do
see if we can use liquid fuels money for the cameraing. Councilman
Noll said we need to identify the project, like the gabions does
anything else fall into that? Councilman Snyder said we know we
have the storm water inlet system, we have the gabions and we know
we have the bridges. Councilman Noll asked is there anything else
identifiable? Councilman Snyder said identifiable, hopefully with the
cameraing that would identify, I was waiting to see what we were to
do with the cameraing then that would identify the scope of the work.
It may include some of this, it may not. But while we’re doing that,
keep in mind MS-4 requirements, so we’re capturing that at the same
time. Councilman Manns said and questionable storm drains,that we
have to replace in the next five years. Councilman Noll asked do we have any
storm drains that are worth looking at on the other side of Main Street
going up towards Cape Horn? Councilman Snyder said there are some
there. There are inlets, they don’t show how they tie in. Really that
down there at Main and George, that’s a self contained, there right
` there and dump right there into the bridge. Councilman Allar asked
are you talking just repairing what we have or putting new ones in?
Councilman Snyder said up here, its putting new ones in. Mr. Malesker
said well that could be. Councilman Allar asked up where? Councilman
Snyder said from at least Pennsylvania Avenue and up, that whole
system needs replaced. Mr. Malesker said you have a lot of inlets there.
Councilman Allar said right out here, there is no storm drain on this
road at all until you get down at the bottom. Councilman Manns said
that’s true. Councilman Allar said the same way with Elm, they only
have one storm drain. Councilman Snyder said that’s why I said, we
need to identify what the scope of work is going to be. I’m not saying
its only limited to that, I’m saying we know have a problem here.
Councilman Allar said there’s no point to go up, its going to be
expensive, its going to take a lot of engineering time and money.
Then we find if we find out if we added another quarter million we
could have added another fifteen more storm drains. Mr. Shearer
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 32
said on North Main Street, we are in about the same situation. We
have 2 small inlets that are, basically recessed curbs, but they do
have small grated tops right above Gay Alley, right above my
property and right on, the other one is on the other side, Main
Street side of George’s property. They run down in. There’s one
inlet in my sidewalk, on the upper side of George. And then
there’s the inlet in front of the church at George Street, that
we’ve been having issues we delayed repairs to that. That all ties,
I think runs over in front of the church and there’s two inlets
right before the bridge and it dumps into the street there. So,
basically that’s why we have the volume of water with that at
the signal light. It’s the same situation,we’re trying to collect with
too small of inlet at the bottom of the hill. Councilman Snyder
said that’s why I said we need to identify what the scope of work
is going, we need to do the cameraing first but first we need to identify
the players. Mr. Malesker said I don’t know if this is federal money.
There’s are plenty of municipalities that are doing this. We submitted
this same application I think for seven municipalities last year that
were awarded. Next application cycle is due in August 2010. Councilman
Snyder said hopefully by 2010 we’ll be able to say this is what our
scope of work is and let’s submit for the money. Councilman Allar asked
would it help since we’re in a flood plain? Mr. Malesker said there’s
certainly an advantage to tying it in with other municipalities. Councilman
Allar said and that’s what I’m saying, you get people like let’s say
Red Lion, bring in Saylor, Miller, Mike Waugh. We’re going to have
them. Mr. Malesker said you have to those letters as part of this. Councilman
Allar said well they’ll do a letter at the drop of a hat. You get on the phone
and talk to them. Everyone does a letter. Councilman Noll asked do we
want Steve to put a proposal together for us, so we know how much this
is going to cost. Mr. Malesker said I would put a proposal together anyways,
so you would know what you are working with. Councilman Allar said
what the difference between terra cotta and corrugating pipe cost? Councilman
Noll said you may be surprised when you find out. Councilman Snyder
said so you know what to do. Mr. Malesker said I’ll get a proposal together
to do a borough wide storm wide storm water study, inlets, pipes and where
inlets would be needed. Councilman Snyder said and see if we could use
liquid fuels for that. Where this proposal that you are coming up with, how
much of it is liquid fuels. Mr. Malesker said the engineering should be,
engineering for storm water is eligible. The camera portion should fall under
engineering but I would want to call before. Councilman Snyder said even
if we have to use up our total liquid fuels money in the engineering aspect,
just so we can to the portion where we’re turning dirt and that money is
all going to be borrowed for our 50/50 match, so be it. We got liquid fuels
money we can utilize and we need to do this right and might as well
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 33
capture all at one time. Councilman Allar said I’ll call Ron Smith,
President of Dallastown Council. Councilman Snyder said the worse
they can do is say no, they don’t have anything. Mr. Malesker said
I know the water authority is looking into upgrades. Councilman
Allar said the water authority will jump at this. Councilman Snyder
said its free money for them too, make your money go twice as far.
Mr. Malesker said typically what Dallastown does, they tie in,
if they are doing water line work, they’ll do the laterals, they’ll do
storm water work, they’ll do sewer, they’ll tie it all together. And they
make an entire project out of it. Councilman Allar said and they’ll want
to add a real good price tag. Councilman Snyder said here are the pictures
for your record. Mr. Malesker said okay.
Dallastown Councilman Allar said Steve and everyone, just for your information,
Yoe Water the Dallastown Yoe Water Authority, they are up there on Wilson Court
Authority lining the lines and so on. Someone had asked what is going on. They
Work got a work order from Rexroth to put in eight homes up there. Also they
are starting to get orders on Main Street. So we don’t know what it is.
Councilman Noll asked when you say eight homes, are you saying
single family homes? Councilman Allar said well, eight homes is the
way they put it. The work order should be on file, its public information,
with the Dallastown Yoe Water Authority. Mr. Malesker said I don’t know
if he’s submitted plans. Councilman Allar said they also have been paying
for eight sewer hook ups. So it looks like the Yoe piece is going to go.
But I think there is something. Councilman Snyder said he still has to
get that rezoned because that is still industrial. Councilman Allar said maybe
he’s keeping it that way. Councilman Snyder said he could be putting a
small building back there.
Aaron Ent. Mr. Malesker said I just wanted to mention too, you should have been copied
on the letter that Rick Resh sent out regarding Aaron Enterprises and then
wanting $4000.00 for excavation and patch they did on George Street.
Councilman Snyder said I got two of these in my mail, the one they
copied to me and the other was for Dennis Grove. The secretary said
why would the sewer authority need to know about? Councilman Snyder
said it was all done with the sewer authority. Mr. Shearer said initially
the reason they dug that hole was because they thought it was a problem
with sewer. The secretary said yeah. And then Mark Clark got involved
and said it isn’t. Mr. Shearer said yeah. Mr. Malesker said after it was
excavated. Mr. Shearer said they want someone to pay. The secretary said
I’ll send it to Dennis Grove. Councilman Snyder said personally in my
opinion, would be that it should come from the sewer authority first, because
it was a sewer authority issue. We weren’t even involved with it, Mark
Clark and Rick Resh and all these people from the sewer authority were
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 34
involved from day one. I think they should be the ones, the sewer
authority is the one that has the deep pockets. Let them reimburse
the $5000.00, its now determined not to be a sewer authority issue,
now its our problem. But I think the initial $5000.00 is theirs. Because
that’s what they thought it was to begin with. Mr. Malesker said right,
and it turned out not to be and I think its their responsibility.
Councilman Allar said everyone says its not my problem, why can’t
we say that? Councilman Snyder said well we could, we could say
its PENN DOT’S problem cause its PENN DOT’S road. But.
Councilman Manns said but they say they’re not responsible for
what is in their road. Councilman Snyder said right now its just who
is going to reimburse Aaron, the $5000.00. I think it should come
from the sewer authority. Councilman Noll said I think if they push
us to pay, we need an itemized bill. Councilman Snyder said oh, the
itemized bill is there. The secretary said everything is there. Councilman
Noll said I don’t remember seeing it. The secretary said I don’t think
it did, because it came to your house didn’t it. Councilman Snyder said
mine came to my house, I don’t know why Dennis Grove came to me
because it had the borough’s address on it. The secretary said the
borough didn’t get a copy. It went to Steve, it went to Dennis Grove,
it went to Sam. Councilman Noll asked can I just look at it. Councilman
Snyder said Rick Resh from C. S. Davidson wants to know who is
responsible. I would think our official borough notice should be, tell
Rick and write it up in an official letter if you want, but I think it should
be the sewer authority. They come up with the money, it was sewer issue
to begin with that’s what they thought. The sewer authority asked them
to go back and do the work and now its turning out not to be sewer
related. I think the sewer authority had them come in and do this work,
cause they thought it was sewer related, they should pony up the first
$5000.00. Let the sewer authority be the one to turn it down. Mr. Shearer
said they still have to claim that it be part of our storm water system.
Councilman Allar said there is one grate there. Mr. Shearer said the other
end of that pipe, don’t go to anything that we’ve got that I know of.
They put in a lot of stone in there. Mr. Malesker said there was a storm
coming so they immediately had to close it up quick. Councilman Naylor
asked I’m wondering why its sinking again now? Mr. Malesker said
they didn’t it for. Mr. Shearer said they didn’t compact it down, they
didn’t have the opportunity to have it restored. Mr. Malesker said they
didn’t mention that in the letter that its going to have to be completely
repaired properly. They’re not going to do that, until they get the
$4000.00 Councilman Snyder said I think we need to have Steve write
the letter saying that it’s a sewer authority, they’re the ones that thought
it was a sewer related issue, unfortunately its not but the sewer authority
would probably the responsible party. Councilman Allar asked isn’t that
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 35
York Township. Councilman Snyder said no its actually here in town,
it should be Yoe Borough Sewer Authority. Councilman Allar said
I thought that was on their line. Mr. Malesker said the sewer okayed it.
Mr. Shearer said it’s a York Township line that they tapped into,
the sewer authority had to get permission from the township to be
able to do the bore into that. Yoe Borough’s Sewer Authority customer
that did the work. So Yoe Borough Sewer Authority would be responsible
in getting their customer repairs. They did a bore from that house to the
line. Councilman Snyder said I think it should be the Yoe Borough
Sewer Authority’s, be paying it, because they thought that was where the
problem was. Mr. Malesker said it coincided with right after they bored
in. Councilman Snyder said it made sense, but I think up to that point,
it’s a sewer issue. Okay I’m seeing one nodding head. Mr. Malekser said
should that letter come from me, or I mean that should be on borough
letterhead. Councilman Snyder said it can be. This came from Rick
Resh of C. S. Davidson. Mr. Malesker said on behalf of the York Township.
Councilman Snyder said that’s what I’m saying, that was on behalf of
York Township. That’s why I was saying let it come from him saying
it was discussed at borough council meeting, we should feel that the appropriate
authority would probably be the Yoe Borough Sewer Authority. And send
a copy to the Yoe Borough Sewer Authority and Dennis Sarpen and send it
to them and send it to all these people so everyone knows that it should
be our sewer authority that should pay for it. Councilman Naylor said and
request payment from our sewer authority not us. Councilman Snyder said
there is a consensus there. Do you want that in a form of a motion, I just
got a consensus from council? Go ahead then. There is a consensus.
Councilman Snyder said I think the borough is ultimately going to be
responsible but the first $5000.00 we weren’t even involved with it,
I think should stay sewer at this point. Because we have our liquid
fuels money tapped into for the next couple of years. Councilman Naylor
said its worth a try. Councilman Snyder said let them fight with them,
at least we’re identifying it, and the sewer authority is keeping mum on
the whole situation. Mr. Malesker said you are recommending that 100%
should be the Yoe Borough Sewer Authority’s responsibility. Councilman
Snyder said cause it was a Yoe Borough Sewer Authority’s customer that
the work was being directed at and who they thought the problem originated
with. Turns out not to be, but. Mr. Malesker said okay. Councilman Snyder
said its like the borough didn’t have any involvement as far as getting them
in to do the work. Councilman Allar said we never authorized expenditure
via work order. Councilman Snyder said that was all under the direction
of the sewer authority. Okay. Mr. Malesker asked did they even notify
you that they were going to be out there digging? Mr. Shearer said
Mark might have called me that day, I think he left me know only because
we were taking the lead in trying to tract the lead in getting something done.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 36
Nothing was getting done as far as fixing the sinkhole because we were
getting complaints from our citizens. That we initiated the call to PENN
DOT to get the whole ball rolling, saying hey there’s a sink hole in your
road. And they started pointing fingers at everyone else to pass the buck.
Councilman Noll said I don’t see any reference in here to a state permit?
It’s a state road. Mr. Shearer said it would have had to have something
from John Glatfelter on it because I know I didn’t talk to him directly
but had left messages when we were trying to get them to get something
fixed. Because the hole kept falling in, whatever they put in to patch
it, kept falling in the hole. So it had to be, coming from him, they had
to have PENN DOT permission. Mr. Malesker said Terry Sprenkle was
there. It said, Mark Clark sent a report, I don’t know if you guys got a
copy of that or not. I think you did, I think they sent it back to you.
Councilman Noll said the reason I brought it up, is there a cost associated
with state, for the state permit. Mr.Shearer said the reason I think is, I don’t
know if they kind of grandfathered it in under the permit that they issued
for the bore because originally we were thinking that the bore went bad.
So the reason they did the bore, it was new road that they didn’t want them
to cut. So it basically, determined that the bore went bad, you need to cut
the street. I think. Councilman Naylor said did the issue an emergency road
cut permit for a sinkhole? Councilman Noll said an emergency because the
road was being collapsed. I don’t know what cost is associated or if it
was time consuming. Councilman Allar said Steve, I think you need to
cover that Yoe Borough never verbally or in writing authorize any
repair work. Mr. Malesker said right. Councilman Snyder said it reads
on behalf of the Yoe Borough Sewer Authority customer, just sounds
like to me that the Yoe Borough Sewer Authority should pick up the
tab. Mr. Malesker said that’s all I had for my report. Unless there
are any questions? Councilman Snyder said anything for the engineer?
YBSA Councilman Snyder said just FYI, we did get the latest copy of the
Minutes Yoe Borough Sewer Authority’s minutes that was held on June
11,2009. That’s now part of the record.
Notice Councilman Snyder said we also received on August 26, 2009 from
from DEP, notice that they’ve extended the MS-4 general permit for one
DEP year and that extension was published August 15, 2009 in the PA
Bulletin. So our existing PAG-13 is now effective from March 10,2010
to midnight of March 9, 2011. Mr. Malesker said I have a copy.
YCP Councilman Snyder said this looks like this came in yesterday, York
Memorandum County Planning Memorandum, draft of the amendment to the county’s
comprehensive plan. Involves a complete update to the housing plan.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 37
Public review process being held Tuesday September 15th at
Fairview Fire Department, Wednesday the 16th at York County
Emergency Services and Thursday September 17th at the call
center at the library. That’s all I had for engineering.
Rettew Councilman Allar said last month we talked about the Rettew
Contract Contract, this issue of easements and as builts. I went through
my files, here’s the contract with the county, CDBG. Its just
a lot of information. This is the Rettew contract, their scope
of work. Right of way negotiations by others, by others they
are saying they are not doing it. Prepare construction drawings
by others. Specifications by others. Advertisement and newspaper
costs by Rettew. Proposal contract bid payment of performance
bond, Rettew. Construction based and grade by others. Utility
work station by others. Required temporary construction work
easement by others. Planning review prior to advertising by
Rettew. Labor and Industry by others. Historical preservation
by others. Pennsylvania Department of Transportation by others.
Department of Environmental Resources by others. Soil erosion
and plan by others. Army Corps of Engineers by others. Local
requirements, zoning, subdivision by Rettew. And those are basically
it. We also have in the file a letter by Barbara Stump who was the
attorney at the time, I reviewed the Rettew contract, the borough
does need to be aware of the scope of work and the timeframe
much of the engineering work needs to be done by others assuming
paid from some other fashion. She is pointing out, the contract,
be aware that there is a lot of work that Rettew is not going to
be responsible for. So we’re on the hook. The CDBG contract puts us
on the hook for everything. We are the ultimate responsible employee
and we have to give up our first born. Now, we can work through
the timeline here, with the wetlands. Those documents and the contract
and its important you understand the timeline here. We were changing
engineers. But this was done in October 1997, that was the contract
with Rettew and basically the county was November of 1997. Construction
began in spring of 1998, and was bid within 98. There is a letter here from
Rettew to Kinsley asking that a bond for $4900.00 to cover the wetland
monitoring. I have a copy of the bond itself signed by Kinsley and a bill
going to CDBG for that amount of money. I have another bond for $11600.00.
Same thing to cover wetland maintenance/monitoring and so forth,
$11,600.00. And also a bond for that. Correct me if I’m wrong, I came
on council in January of 1998, and I believe that is when we changed
engineers. Councilman Snyder said pretty close to that. Councilman Allar
said so here’s what you have, you have these contracts being signed.
And a whole bunch of work being required by others, the others of course
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 38
would be the borough engineer. In 97 it would have been Holley,
in 98, Holley’s gone, C. S. Davidson is here. Easement and as
builts can’t be done until the project is done. At least towards the
end of it. Now we have a new engineer. As far as I want to take
it at this point. As far as Holley and Rettew goes, this is a letter
from Rettew and you may remember this Sam. This is near or
at completion, late August, the borough had a contract for $12850.00
for professional services. And in addition to our originally agreed
upon scope, Rettew has provided services which include resolving
a property line dispute with the location property owner, sanitary
sewer line in concrete encasement, including DEP general permit
number 5, what would you estimated it takes to do to do a GP 5,
maybe that’s $3000.00. Mr. Malesker said that depends on the
scope. Councilman Allar said basin spillway flow adjustment including
obtaining approvals from DEP. Sanitary lateral design including
preparation of a legal description and graphic exhibit for an easement,
highway occupancy permit preparation and processing for construction
entrance, construction cost estimates and maintenance cost estimates.
Anyway they have a bill here for three grand, that is a pretty cheap
price. We never paid it. There was actually two bills, there was other
bill for $500.00. Which we did pay, we stiffed them on this one, we
never paid it. They should have done a lot of extra work out there.
I know I mentioned it at the time, I find no fault with Rettew and they
did not sue us, they didn’t do anything else they walked about for it.
Mr. Malesker said they did not provide that conservation easement.
Councilman Allar said well actually they did, even though it didn’t
specifically say it in the contract. Here’s the conservation easement,
I’ve got it. You screwed up. A memo from Jim Stuckey, he was
the engineer of record, I know I didn’t get to talk to him over there
at Rettew, maybe he’s not with them anymore. Okay, please have
your solicitor review we will forward this to the Army Corps of
Engineer’s for approval when you sign and execute this. And then
it has copied to Pete Solymos and copied to Jeff Shue. This has
blanks in it and its not signed so here’s what happened. The
Army Corps of Engineer’s got this, knew it wasn’t official it
was just for their information, so they never gave us any credit.
We probably never reviewed it. Whether that was us, or Pete,
or Jeff, who knows. But we probably dropped the ball. So that’s
why this never got filed. As to the as builts, they’re right, there
certainly on the books. It would have been nice, even though
Rettew was running the show, if C. S. Davidson would have said
by the way, make sure that such and such is going to get done.
Remind us, kick someone to do it, which probably have been
C. S. Davidson. Well anyway, it didn’t happen. Mr. Malesker
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 39
Mr. Malesker said but C. S. Davidson had no involvement with
that project. Councilman Allar said no, they knew the project
was going on. Every meeting we talked about the project. And
that’s routine, we don’t think, the same kind of documents and
so, that you deliver on a day to day basis. I know what as builts
are, I know what easements are but oh yeah that’s right you
have to do this. Just as reminder so we don’t forget about it.
So I have easement, at least a draft of one. Councilman Snyder
said I don’t, all I know, there isn’t any copy of that back in
the borough folder. What I found in the agreements, and the only
reason I was trying to go after Rettew for the as builts and the
easement is because Rettew was also suppose to take care of
obtaining the DEP permit or the Army Corps Permit. Councilman
Allar said Rettew was? Councilman Snyder said yeah. Councilman
Allar said not according to this. Councilman Snyder said according
to, you don’t have all three addendums. In the addendums, Rettew
was suppose to take care of obtaining the permits, when they
obtained the permit is when it came up with the wetland monitoring
and all the other conditions on the wetlands. It went back to the
county, we got extra money for that and that was signed off on an
addendum, I think that was on addendum four. That is when they
actually got paid to do that work. Prepare the wetland easements and
everything else. It was in the addendum that it wasn’t really specified,
who was to do the as builts. Now you would think, now I did, they’re
saying that they are willing to do the, the only question is the as builts
for the new place. Because Rettew is saying they are willing to do
the easement over there. On the wetland monitoring, that ended up
in Kinsley contract, because that was going to be for five years after
that. I contacted Kinsley, told them that this was never done, where
can you help us out here. They’re in the process of going back, to who
they went to, which was Davis Landscaping, to do the actual monitoring.
They can’t provide that the monitoring was done, so I have the word
out to them, now look, now we all need to pony up and I think Kinsley
will be providing the wetland monitoring at least for four years. They
are providing one year’s worth of mitigation reports. The contract was
for five years so they’re trying to find out where the four. They have
calls out, the last I heard from Tom Ferrence. The last phone call that I
had out from him, he is still working with Davis Landscaping, they’re
trying to see what they can provide to see if those reports were ever
done. Which I doubt that they ever were done. Councilman Allar said
don’t have Davis do it, Davis doesn’t have the qualified staff. Its going
to take a long time to get them down here and you’re going to have
DEP come down here to walk them through. Councilman Snyder said
I’m pretty sure that Kinsley is going to be willing to, he said the same
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 40
thing. We all dropped the ball here. This has been going for nine years.
Its finally come back to bite us, we all have a responsibility, now its
where can we all pull together so we are not litigate this for years in
court. And saying you didn’t do this and you didn’t do that, because
everybody is going to be pointing the finger back at everyone else.
So its going to be whomever Kinsley picks. Councilman Allar said
but what I’m saying, is there a way to say, hey you know I know
of a qualified person. Councilman Snyder said maybe check with Jake.
Councilman Allar said I know of qualified person is willing to do it.
He’s helped to establish this, of all the people would probably know if
the wetlands are maturing and doing what they’re suppose to do.
Councilman Snyder said as far as the as builts, I honestly think when
that change order came through, it should have been picked up by the
county then. That was going to be a requirement. I also have Tom in
there at Kinsley looking, I said how did Davis do the first inspection
without an as built? They had to have something to show what they
were looking at, where they were looking at. I said if you can provide
me with an as built, so we at least show the Army Corps that it was
done and who did it, and at least then we can go back to someone
to get these as builts. But as far as the current program or situation up
there with this mitigation, I talked to Steve and I think I mentioned it
to Seth. I honestly don’t see since York Township has to provide
as builts for their whole eight acres, can’t the as built be a little dotted
line on that big sheet of paper and say this is .76 acres and this is what
we sold off to Yoe Borough. And that be the as builts, York Township
already has to do everything else. Councilman Noll said that would be in
their proposal. Councilman Snyder said that would in their proposal,
so I think we can cover ourselves with the mitigation except for maybe
one year. I think we’re definitely covered with the easement, the as builts
can be covered with the proposal York Township’s doing and the only
money we have to come up with is the actual purchasing of the land or
whatever deal you came up with York Township. Councilman Allar
said we don’t have to buy the land. Councilman Snyder said well then
its going to hopefully minimal on our end. Councilman Allar said before
this is over, York Township will have to go on file with DEP and the
Army Corps of Engineer’s with some sort of a document, it is their
property, they’re ultimately responsible for these things even though
they are going to come to us as responsible. But officially the Corps
of Engineers will want some form of formal agreement from the
township. Councilman Noll said that is when Pete would come in with
some sample easements, and some things that will have to be catched
from the letter and filled out to know where actually where that piece
of the land is. Councilman Snyder said it’s a concept, its just a concept
Engineer’s Report(Cont.) Page 41
at this point. Okay. Anything else? Very good.
Maintenance Report
Grass Mr. Shearer said between vacation and cutting grass before and after
vacation and working with the bidders up at the park its kind of
Bidders been a slow month for anything else.
Door Mr. Shearer said I have that door on top of my agenda, I will get
a price for that door. I already contacted John, there is a gentleman
coming tomorrow to take a look. And I asked Barry who the county
uses, to get some ideas for some different people. I want to get some
prices for both these entry doors. We’re getting a lot of rust and stuff
on them, from the salt and stuff, the closure here is shot. Plus they
aren’t very energy efficient anymore. So get a price so you can mull
that over and hopeful put that in the budget for next year. Councilman
Myers said Hershock’s and phone number is 238-7331. Councilman
Noll said Architectural Door and Hardware have steel doors, they
may be cheaper. You want them to install it too? Councilman Myers said
they don’t use their own people, they’re terrible. I take you show you
and show you a door. Councilman Noll said we install ours. Actually
get a material price and I can get a guy. Mr. Shearer said I can do that.
Councilman Myers said Architectural you can get a good price.
Cell Mr. Shearer said the other thing, Sam brought up at the end of the
Wireless my report last month, I didn’t report what I’m doing with the wireless
Phone plan I discussed before because excessive charges. I did add 150
minutes to the plan we currently have, for only $5.00 a month. Right
now we’re on a month to month contract. I’m trying to keep track
of it, using the phone here for making calls that I figure are going to
be 25 minutes long. I shouldn’t have as much problem. I’m going to
switch to T Mobile once I need a new phone. Councilman Snyder said
just like you said when you know the conversation is going to be twenty
to twenty five minutes long. That could be, with the stuff is going on
this borough that could be. Mr. Shearer said that’s what happened,
before when I ran over with all our conversations trying to follow
up for people to fix that sink hole, I kept calling PENN DOT and calling
Mark Clark saying you’ve got do something here. We ran a lot of
minutes. I’m trying to use the shop phone more. That’s pretty much it.
YCP Councilman Snyder said we received a request from York County Planning
Request asking the municipality to send a letter of support for the Pennsylvania
WAY WAY Finding Signage Program for York County. I mean. Councilman
Finding Myers said its just a letter. Councilman Snyder said I don’t think its going
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 42
Signage to affect us too much but. Mr. Shearer said I read through that, they
Program just want a letter. A motion was made by Councilman Myers to
Letter send a letter of support to York County Planning on the WAY
Finding Program. The motion was seconded by Councilman Manns.
All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried. Do you have
your copy of the proposed letter? The secretary said I can get it off
of the email. Councilman Myers asked if the email could be forwarded
to me. Councilman Snyder said anything else for maintenance?
Zoning Officer’s Report
Councilman Myers said the file is here. He sent a letter for grass over six inches.
He had one complaint, he sent a letter out, filed some paperwork for a body
shop on George Street. He checked on the zoning permit for 179 S. Main Street.
He filed some paperwork at the borough hall. Total hours are 2 ½ hours and 12 miles.
Councilman Snyder asked any questions for the zoning officer?
Emergency Management Agency Report
There is no report.
Mayor and Police Report
Councilman Snyder said the mayor is not in tonight. Let the record reflect he was off on
a business meeting and it conflicted tonight. He will be out of time from September 5 until
12th.
Secretary’s Report
Free Yard The secretary said just as a reminder that the free yard sale dates are
Dates September 4th and 5th.
Penna. The secretary said I am sharing with council that I’m submitting to the
Municipal Pennsylvania Municipal Retirement System, our municipal obligation
Retirement for 2010.
System
Financial Councilman Snyder said everyone see that we got our financial update
Update for council, dated August 10,2009 which showed what amounts were
8/10/09 transferred over to Members 1st Credit Union. And some of those amounts
we discussed thoroughly when we discussed funding sources.
Councilman Snyder said anything else for secretary?
Maintenance(revisited) Page 43
Snow Councilman Myers asked can we go back to maintenance for just
Removal a second. Could we, on the snow removal crew that we have Dana,
Crew is it possible to look for somebody other than council members
to be on that? The only reason I say that because some of my work,
has changed at work and depends on what kind of snow it is, I have
to go to work. I wouldn’t much help for me, other than dig out the
cinder spreader. I don’t want to be relied on, I don’t mind helping.
If we’re called, we go. And that’s the problem, George is on there
too. So depends on what would happen, I’m going to need George.
Mr. Shearer said that’s the thing, the three people that are needed,
John included, depends on what the school district has to do too.
He is kind of flexible there, depends on the cleaning schedule, he
does have time to do that. I’m open, if you can decide if there is
someone you want to add. I don’t care if want to add another person.
Councilman Myers said I just want permission to try to find someone
or other people. Councilman Noll said does this involve just ride along
people. Councilman Myers said no, to plow, to actually plow. If he
puts in eighteen hours, he would want to go home and then George and
I would finish it up. Then we separate hours. Mr. Shearer said it would
be for the bigger storms. And that’s kind of the thing, the bigger storms
all three of them are going to have some responsibility at their job to
deal with that storm. And there was times, George would work at the
county come home and got in the tractor and cleared intersections out.
Slept for a little bit, and went back to work to deal with the storm again.
There kind of in the same boat I am, its like, they’re doing this on their
free time away from work. The bigger storms, if I had a second person,
gives us the ability to have the second truck on the street. The smaller
storm when there isn’t as much to plow,if its just a spread only, those
I can handle. It’s the big situations. Councilman Snyder said go ahead
and start checking around. Check with Strobecks again, cause they’ve
been off for a couple years now, the Woody situation has died down now.
Mr. Shearer said it wasn’t so much the Woody, Bob basically that he
would like to not be as responsible for that because he’d like to be able
to do things knowing he doesn’t have those responsibilities. You know
what I’m saying. Come November, like in my situation, through March,
you don’t plan to take days off, you plan to go away for a day but still
depending on the weather. Just because you don’t know what’s going to
creep up. He has said, he is willing, he would be a resource that if we
get into a big storm and needed big trucks, you can call him. He does
not want to be a responsible party to be on of the call people and say
you have to be out here. Councilman Snyder said like Barry said check
down there at the fire department. They drive big trucks down there.
I know that’s probably different than driving a plow. Councilman Naylor
said I know I’m already out doing that. About ten minutes after you go
Maintenance(revisited) Page 44
by my phone rings. Councilman Myers said I just don’t feel comfortable,
I don’t mind being on that list but I had to worry about this last year,
if something big happens, I need to go. There was one point one year,
when we had that heavy snow, we actually went in and help open York
City. Open up alleys, behind county buildings so. Councilman Naylor
said not that I wouldn’t volunteer but I wouldn’t want to be. Councilman
Snyder said I can put a note in the newspaper. Councilman Myers said
let us do some checking first, sometime word of mouth gets you a better
employee. Councilman Snyder said its not like you are doing it for
gratis, you are considered a part time employee. Councilman Myers said
I know someone who has a mowing business, I give him a call and see
if he is interested. Councilman Allar said who do we know that lives
around here. Councilman Snyder said I see a man leave early up on
the alley behind my place in a red truck. Councilman Noll said that is
Wayne Schell and he works for Kinsley. Councilman Snyder said
okay anything else under secretary’s report?
Unfinished Business
Meeting Councilman Snyder said I did have my meeting with the codifiers.
with They said give them about forty five days and they’ll have the
Codifiers preliminary manuscript back to us.
Councilman Snyder asked anything else for unfinished business?
New Business
Recycle Councilman Snyder said you can recycle phone books now through
Phone October 29th. Drop off center at any of the drop centers and education
Books center, didn’t specify any particular one.
YCBA Councilman Snyder said York County Boroughs Association is holding
Dinner their dinner and 2009 meeting on September 24 beginning at 6:30PM.
Suppose to RSVP if you are planning on going.
PSAB Councilman Snyder said Pennsylvania State Association of Boroughs
100th is looking for municipalities, they’re celebrating they’re 100th
Anniversary in 2011. Looking for municipalities to send in photographs of their
buildings, historical structures in their borough, photos of council,
police department, staff. And that’s all I had.
YCED Councilman Allar said I have one other item, I mentioned it earlier
Attending I’d to invite some people from the York County Economic Development
Next Corporation. They have listed their goals as to support and retain existing
New Business(cont.) Page 45
Council businesses through our business retention expansion program,
Meeting grow jobs, and invest in cluster and industry sectors. Growth
investment and business recruitment and invest in the business
environment with infrastructure. I don’t think it would hurt to
at least listen to them. Tie in with the comp plan and infrastructure.
We’re going to have to start getting serious, we don’t have a lot
of advantages here, but we don’t won’t to lose them. Councilman
Snyder said we can listen to them. We’re going to have the ball,
YCED can lead us but not dribble too much to us.
Councilman Snyder asked anything else under new business?
Payment of the Bills
Councilman Snyder asked if everyone had an opportunity to look over the bill
list? There are additional bills to be added: Jerry Pickel:$180.00, Dallastown
Yoe Water Authority:$1109.43, Dallastown Yoe Water Authority $52.83,
Dallastown Yoe Water Authority $27.57, Dallastown Yoe Water Authority $22.41.
A motion was made by Councilman Myers to pay the bills as listed with the
additions. The motion was seconded by Councilman Manns. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said bills paid.
Adjournment
Councilman Allar made a motion to adjourn the meeting at 10:17PM. The motion
was seconded by Councilman Myers. All in favor.
Wednesday, October 7, 2009
Leaf Collection - 2009
Leaf Collection!
Yoe Borough Dates:
November 4th & 18th.
Please collect your leaves at the curbside
Yoe Borough Office 717-244-5904
Friday, September 4, 2009
Yoe Borough Minutes August 4, 2009
YOE BOROUGH PG. 1
150 NORTH MAPLE STREET
YOE, PA 17313
The regular monthly meeting of Yoe Borough Council was held on August 4, 2009 at
the Yoe Borough Municipal Building, 150 N. Maple Street, Yoe. The meeting was called to order
at 7:04 PM by Council President Sam Snyder with the Pledge of Allegiance.
Council members in attendance:
Sam Snyder
Barry Myers
Tom Allar
Bruce Manns
George Howett
Seth Noll
Others in attendance:
John Sanford, Mayor
Sandy Sterner, Secretary-Treasurer
Dana Shearer, Maintenance
Pete Solymos, Solicitor
Steve Malesker, Engineer
Melody Schaefer, Members 1st Federal Credit Union
Robert and Karen Morton, Residents
Minutes
Councilman Snyder asked did everyone have an opportunity to look over the minutes from the prior meeting? Any additions or corrections? Councilman Allar asked I just have one comment, is there a
page twenty nine? The secretary said yes there was a page twenty nine. I will make sure you get it,
it probably didn’t print. Councilman Snyder said and that’s the one you wanted to correct wasn’t it?
Any additions or corrections? Councilman Snyder said I’ll abstain. If not do I have a motion to
accept. A motion was made by Councilman Allar to accept the minutes of the July 7, 2009 council
meeting. The motion was seconded by Councilman Myers. In favor of motion: Councilman Myers,
Councilman Manns, Councilman Noll and Councilman Howett. Councilman Snyder:abstained.
Councilman Snyder said minutes approved.
Pg. 2
Councilman Snyder said at this time we were going to have our new council person sworn in but
the mayor had to run home for the oath. Bear with us and we’ll get back to you.
Visitors
Councilman Snyder said unto visitors, first on the agenda is Ms. Schaefer.
Members Melody Schaefer said I spoke with Sandy and she asked me to put together a
1st a packet for you, and that’s what I have for you. When I spoke to Sandy on
the phone the other day, we discussed the fact that a couple of your checking
accounts that you plan to leave them there right now. However we did
list four separate accounts that you were looking at making some changes.
Correct me if I’m wrong. The liquid fuels checking account. I’m going to
refer to the two rate sheets that I have in here now. The top rate is the
certificate of deposit rate sheet and the bottom rate sheet is for checking
account/deposit sheet. What I’m going to do with the your liquid fuels
checking account is putting it into business checking product. Its based
on the number of paper transactions that you have going the account on
a monthly basis. We have a level here with up to a 1000 paper transactions
a month. Sandy, would you say you have up to a 1000 transactions a month?
The secretary said some months we have zero transactions. Its just an
account to use when you have state liquid account bills. It could be up to
two three four a year. Ms. Schaefer said then I will refer you to business
checking, level 1. That amount is up to 50 items at no charge on a monthly
basis. Interest would compounded from the account date. The secretary said
we have $.22 in the account. Ms. Schaefer said you don’t keep much in it.
The secretary said the state wants you to keep it in the account to get
as much interest as you can, transfer as you need it. Ms. Schaefer said
that’s what we’d be doing with your checking account. It sounds like
its exactly you need. The other three accounts you have with PLGIT right
now, the Capital Reserve Account. Sandy and I were discussing, this
is an account that you may be able to look at some longer investment
options. And I want to refer you to the certificate of deposit rate sheet
for some options that you would have with that one. We do have a
19 month certificate of deposit special if you look half way down that
rate sheet. The dividend rate is 1. 98% that may be good for part of those
funds. We also have an eleven month certificate right now at 1. 74%, with
an annual percentage yield of 1. 75%. As I was looking at your PLGIT
accounts, I believe your accounts going back to March. It appears you
were receiving less that 1% on those accounts at that time. Councilman
Allar said .5 /.6, I’m assuming they’ve gone down. Would you be willing
to lock into the accounts for any longer period of time? Say nineteen months?
Visitors(cont.) Page 3
Or is that about the longest you would want to go with the Capital Reserve
fund? Councilman Snyder said I don’t think I’d like nineteen months.
Solicitor Solymos said not more than a year. Ms. Schaefer said okay,
we have two options for you. We have a no penalty certificate of deposit,
nine months at the bottom of the page. How the nine month certificate
would work, it has a minimum balance requirement of $5000.00, we’re
guaranteeing you this rate for the next nine months. You can withdraw
money at any dollar amount and transfer it into another account. That you
can write a check off it, with no penalty. If rates happen to go up, you
can transfer it into a higher rate no penalty certificate. If rates happen to
go down, we’re still guaranteeing that rate for nine months. If you would
like to keep part of that Capital Reserve fund liquid, that is what I’d
suggest. If you’d like to lock some of it in for a longer period of time,
we have an 11 month certificate right now. These rates are subject to
change, obviously at any time. As soon as you lock into it, that is your
rate. What I would suggest is a portion to put into the no penalty certificate,
the remainder lock it in for a period of time. We have certificate specials
under one year. Councilman Noll said with the nine month no penalty,
we can open that with a minimum of $5000.00. Ms. Schaefer said yes, if
you fall below the $5000.00, we’re not going to charge you a penalty, we
just ask that you close that and put it into a checking account. The secretary
said I don’t think the Capital Reserve Fund ever dipped below $5000.00 in
the fourteen and half years that I’ve been here. We have around $70,000.00
in that account. Ms. Schaefer said it would be up to you on how much of
that you would want. The secretary said can you add to that any time during
that period of time. We get our cable franchise fee, quarterly. Can I put that
money in there any time anytime, or does that not work. Ms. Schaefer said
how much do you get at a time? Is it over $5000.00? What I’d suggest under
the account is to open a savings account, to add to that? Councilman Snyder
said unless you catch in and open up another one. The secretary said you
don’t want to do that every three months. Councilman Snyder said but
with the cable franchise. The secretary said I get a check every three months,
you made it that way in the new contract, its every quarter. Ms. Schaefer asked
how much do you get? The secretary said its about $2500.00 to $3000.00 and
what I do I just put it into the capital reserve fund now. That is the way its
suppose to be put in. That’s our long term savings really, the Capital Reserve
Fund is. Ms. Schaefer said what we can do is, under the Capital Reserve fund
account have a savings or money market account. That you can put those
funds in until the certificate comes due. The secretary said I will talk to you
about that. Ms. Schaefer said that would be very easy to do. The two other
accounts, the General Fund account and the State Road Fund account. We
Visitors(cont.) Page 4
were looking at shorter term investment options for them. Are these ones
that you will add to at a regular basis as well. The State Road fund yearly,
the General Fund I haven’t for a long time. But that is listed on our budget
as part of our cash, that has to be available at any time if we get below of
what we need to operate the borough. Ms. Schaefer said absolutely. What
I’d suggest for both of those, nine month no penalty CD. If you are not
going to be adding to it, or adding to it once a year. The certificate is
appropriate for you, you know what rate you have. It doesn’t appear
that you will be going below $5000.00. The secretary said unless we have
to, because the General Fund is our emergency cash account. Councilman
Snyder said with the state road. The secretary said we can’t dip below
$5000.00 in the state road, because you have keep money in there for
equipment. It’s the General fund one, that would be the one that might
have potential there. Ms. Schaefer said absolutely. Councilman Snyder
said we can name these, like State Road CD, General Fund CD. Ms.
Schaefer said what we’d be doing for you, is establishing numbers for
you for at least four separate accounts. And they would be titled
Borough of Yoe, underneath it would be Liquid Fuels, a checking
account. Then Borough of Yoe, subtitled Capital Reserve Account,
underneath will be everything associated with the account, a non
penalty nine month CD and an eleven month CD and have a money
management account available to add all those accounts too. It will
show all underneath. The secretary said that will be good. Ms.
Schaefer do you use online services. The secretary said no. Ms.
Schaefer said we can show you how to do that, its easy to show.
Again under the General Fund, if you want to put as much in the
CD we could have a savings account available as well. Under that so
that if you did get funds in, you could put it in then. The state road
fund as well, they’d be all separate. The secretary said I’d have to
a separate fund for the state road as well, I couldn’t put my check
right into the CD. I get the yearly check. Ms. Schaefer said how
much do you get. The secretary said around $19,000.00. Ms. Schaefer
said we can do one of two things. If the rate of the CD is higher than
the year you establish it, take it all and add it together into the higher
CD. Okay. Its all still under one member number. So its all grid together.
So you know what accounts go together. Councilman Myers said could
we combine the money to get a higher budget, to get money budgeted.
The secretary said liquid fuels no. But the Capital Reserve and the General
Fund is your money to do with what you want without reservations.
Councilman Myers said I was just thinking instead of having a whole
bunch of CDs, we could combine some under one line item, instead of
having $20,000.00 under one account, $20,000.00 under another account.
Visitors(cont.) Page 5
Obviously we’d make more money with $40,000.00. Ms. Schaefer said
it all washes out in the end whether you put $20,000.00 here and $20,000.00
there. Now some of our certificates have a tiered interest rate, but with
the no penalty, if you have $20,000.00 in one account and $20,000.00 in
the other, you’re earning the same interest rate on both. So effectively its
the same, its what is affective for you as far as bookkeeping. Probably
would be easier for my general fund because by the time budget hits,
I can guesstimate what the interest is for the rest of the year. We will be
able to add it to the beginning balance. Councilman Myers said trying
to make a couple bucks. Ms. Schaefer said right now, if you are looking
at the twelve month CD, there would be a penalty for taking that out. Right
now with the special we have with the eleven month you’d be better off
with that one. Now those specials can change at any time but once you open
up your CD you will have it for eleven months. Councilman Snyder said if
we want to go with this, why don’t we make the resolution and have the
treasury put it in the accounts. I know we’re talking about splitting some
up on the Capital Reserve between the fixed eleven month and the no
penalty. Just have the resolution read, the treasurer to open the accounts
in her best interest as she sees fit. The secretary said since I never used
the Capital Reserve, I think the last time you used it that was to buy
a truck, correct. How much do you want to put into something like that?
Are we going to need a truck in another year, are we going to need a
truck for four years. Councilman Snyder said you would know more
when it comes to budget time what we’d be looking at. The secretary
said Capital Reserve isn’t in the budget. Councilman Snyder said no,
you would know if we were looking at buying a new truck. I’d think
fifty/ fifty. The secretary said so to divide it in half. I just want to feel
comfortable, that I’m not putting too much in one thing and not enough
in the other. Okay split it half I can do that. Councilman Snyder said
with you being the treasurer, you know where the money is coming
and going anyways you know how much you have to pull out of the
savings account to cover bills. So I’d trust your judgement. The
secretary said your savings account is going to remain with Citizens
for general fund and your checking account. We have this park
renovation fund now. I’m not going through changing all that right
now. This is what I recommend that you start with, see how it
goes. Later on down on the road we’ll look at it. Councilman Snyder
said what I’m going to do, we have another resolution that we
need to do first, because I already numbered it twelve. This will
be resolution thirteen and Pete has to draw it up anyways. Because
I wasn’t sure if we were going to pass it or not. So he has to draw it
up so we’ll make that the next motion in line. Ms. Schaefer said
Visitors(cont.) Page 6
what I would need is exactly what you said, A resolution saying
who the authorizing signers will be on the account on the accounts
with Members First. Councilman Snyder said make a note of that
Pete, she also needs who the authorized signers will be. Solicitor
Solymos said do you send a card around. The secretary said we
have two that will be on the cards but the state liquid fuels fund
is the only one that requires two signatures. I only have to sign
for these other accounts myself. But Sam signs in my absence.
Ms. Schaefer said we will print the liquid fuels account with
two lines for signature. The secretary asked and you said there
would be no charge for checks? Ms. Schaefer said you need
to tell me what kind you need. The secretary asked can you come
down and see me next week. Sometime. Too much here. Ms.
Schaefer said this is my question, you will have two authorized
signers on the accounts correct? The secretary said on the signature
cards yes. Ms. Schaefer said do you want me to bring them with
me when I come, do you want to sign something tonight? The
secretary said come back, we have a lot to do tonight. Ms. Schaefer
said sounds good. The secretary said that would be Sam and me,
do you just need a copy of his driver’s license? Ms. Schaefer said
a copy of his driver’s license and social security number and his
signature. The secretary said we can do that. Ms. Schaefer said I’ll just
give you a call. The secretary said give me a call and I’ll coordinate it
with Sam then. Next week please. Councilman Allar said all the
employees and the officials can become members ? Ms. Schaefer said
you all can become members as well. Councilman Allar said at these
rates? Ms. Schaefer said absolutely. One condition that has changed
a little bit, I am the manager of Whiteford Road branch. I’m going
with your accounts, and would work with you if you bring your
accounts there. I’ll be there. I’ll bring some coupons for the grand
opening. Anyone have any more questions? The secretary said nice
presentation. Councilman Snyder said thanks for coming tonight.
Ms Schaefer said I’ll call you next week.
Swearing In of Councilman David Naylor
Councilman Snyder said next on our agenda is the swearing in. Mayor Sanford asked that Mr. Naylor raise his right hand and repeat after me. “ I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend, the
Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the Commonwealth. And I will discharge my
duties of my office with fidelity. Mayor Sanford said congratulations. Councilman Snyder said
welcome aboard. If we’re going too fast, just yell at us and we’ll come back to explain something.
Visitors(cont.) Page 7
Councilman Snyder said still back at visitors, next on the agenda is Mr. Morton. Mr. Morton said I think we have a little bit of a water problem, its more severe than I realized. I watched storms and how the water flows down Main Street. I also watched the water as they flushed the hydrant, the opening of the hydrant at 3rd and Main Streets. At the paraplegic spot that I have, it goes over the sidewalk in the 200
block of Main Street. What has happened is the road is now higher than what it was before. And in the
300 block, the water comes down the street, if the driveway is a little on the low side, the water goes up
over the sidewalk. We have a problem with it running over the sidewalks as you head up towards Johns
down to the wheelchair ramp. The water coming out of 3rd Street, on the other side, it meets in the middle, it just gets stronger down further, whether is a mile away. The street is higher than what it was
before. Dana and I stood together that night that they paved up through, I thought up there it might be okay,but after I saw it, we’ve got a problem. Councilman Allar asked so the water stays on the sidewalk? Mr. Morton said yes. Councilman Allar asked and this wasn’t happening like this before?
Mr. Shearer said I’m not sure how much a curb reveal was there. I know we did have some problems
on the other side of the street down lower with doing that. It seems like, we are getting further and further up the hill with it. A lot of problem is that we don’t catch the water until we get to Philadelphia.
We don’t have any inlets there to get it out of the street. I don’t how much comes down in front of your
house Seth. Councilman Noll said probably to the edge of the sidewalk. What remedies do we have, is
that a PENN DOT problem, because it’s a PENN DOT street. Mr. Shearer said storm water is going to
be our issue. Solicitor Solymos said PENN DOT will tell you, you figure it out, we can reimburse you.
Mr. Malesker said they weren’t suppose to change the profile of the road at all. What they milled off is
what they put back. Is what they said. Mr. Shearer said there’s spots where it’s a little higher. You can
go out there now and they came back with the milling head and actually notched in front of the storm inlets. It wasn’t as high as it was, it wasn’t that high before. You can tell that a little bit extra was added.
They had to come back and notch it out. Mr. Morton said I noticed at Broad Street that use to be kind of
low. And you put a post in to support the concrete cause it was maxed. Water wasn’t making it in. Councilman Allar said I guess we need to get pictures. Mr. Shearer said I can show you some video on
the computer, just by chance, on July 23rd we had a hard rain event. I grabbed the camera quick and went up to the park because we discussed about the storm water up there. And I did get some video
in that area. I have short session video from standing on Philadelphia looking out onto Main. Water
coming down, up on the sidewalk and washes out down through. Councilman Snyder said its like a river in front of my house. Mr. Shearer said in front of Sam’s house, at the ADA ramp by the fire hydrant,
I don’t know what else to do, unless put in more drains, the fact that it is further up the hill. Councilman
Snyder asked is there any way that you could I’m trying to look at this realistically. We have a problem.
I don’t think anyone is going to deny that. Now you got back to PENN DOT, we went that route before,
PENN DOT just put down a new road. They’re not going to want to do anything. If they do, do something, they’re going to get angry with us like they did last time and milled the street. And said fine you live with a bad road for the next twenty years. So knowing that’s what we’re looking at if we go
back to them. Is there another alternative? That from an engineering standpoint, we can go and say
take three inches around the curb and mill it ourselves or have someone mill it for us just enough that
we’re making a trench that would get our curb reveal back. Not mess up the macadam. But still use the
same drain systems that we have. Like Bob said, we lost the curb reveal the last time they paved it. Now they repaved it again, they were suppose to keep the same curb reveal. They didn’t at some spots. I also
Visitors(cont.) Page 8
know, as I’m turning this on to you, I think there is a state mandate coming out that PENN DOT has
go to intersection throughout the entire state and put in new handicapped ramps. Is that the time when we say, we don’t want facing, using that one up at Philadelphia, we don’t want it facing Philadelphia we want it facing towards Main Street so the water doesn’t jump onto the sidewalk. Mrs. Morton said its still coming in, its coming down the block. Councilman Snyder said that’s how it is down at our end too.
Mr. Morton said when PENN DOT did the work, it still is going over the wheelchair ramp and goes out
into Main Street. It still comes up through, high enough and hits the electric pole. Floods the sidewalk on Main Street. Mr. Malesker said I think one main thing, if the curb reveal did change, sounds like it
did in some areas than what it was suppose to. Then PENN DOT should fix the problem. The contractor should be under a one year performance bond, so he should come back and fix that. They could mill
near the curb line. And take some of that off and provide some grooves for the water to come down
through. We had some issues in Dallastown and that’s what they did. We tried to work with them about
some other stuff, and its been ten years and they still haven’t fixed problem. They actually had a pretty final walk through about three weeks ago, that they invited me too on behalf of Dallastown and I wasn’t aware of that issue. Otherwise I would have brought it up. They had seven, eight guys looking at the
project. They haven’t done the final yet so I think there is still an opportunity to meet with them.
Councilman Snyder said okay, if everyone is in agreement, since Steve already has the contacts with
Dallastown, has already met with them. Have Steve make the contacts on behalf of Yoe Borough,
before you have this final, he is already working with Dallastown. This has just come to my attention,
meet down here. Councilman Allar said take some measurements and see where they violated height
limits. So we know to point that out. Councilman Noll said did the plans have profile and curb reveal?
Councilman Snyder said I think it did, didn’t it, there were like forty some pages. Mr. Malesker said
I don’t know if it showed curb reveal. Mr. Shearer said I don’t know if it did or not. Councilman Allar said I’m assuming that we have some factual argument. Councilman Snyder asked Dana do you want
to look into that and get with Steve. Matter of fact, if you want set up the meeting or talk to PENN DOT,
get to Dana and say this is the date I’m going to be doing it so he has a day or two to get the information
you require. If not have them here and see what we do from there. Mr. Malesker said I doubt if the
curb reveals were actually on there. Councilman Snyder said they have to be somewhere because they have to know what they’re maintaining. Councilman Noll said not necessarily exist, all varying levels.
Mr. Malesker said would have had done a base, gutterline profile to do that. I think their philosophy was if they take two inches off they put two inches back. Mr. Shearer said that was pretty much what they were going for. Councilman Snyder said they can’t just lay two inches there. Mr. Shearer said when you’re laying asphalt down, I mean, the guy is laying it. Councilman Howett said on this side of the side of the hill when they did their cut, if its three inches with a gutter, then it pop up to that. It never changed it went right up the gutterline seam. About two to three inches at that drain. That is how they did the hill.
I thought that was the way they did all of it, maybe they didn’t get into it. Made it basic. Mr. Shearer said they milled the curb off at my house. Councilman Snyder said that is good point there, if they milled the curb off. Right there is a good point, they didn’t do what they were suppose to. Mr. Malesker
said they should have sent something to Yoe Borough to be part of that walk through. I don’t know if you guys got anything. The secretary said not that I saw. Mr. Shearer said the main thing that we got on the project was getting that last set of plans. Councilman Snyder said they didn’t want to hear from us because we had that spring water issue. Mr. Malesker said that is what I brought up since I had them there. Speaking on behalf of Yoe Borough, we do have that issue with that spring there. So the guy
Visitors(cont) Page 9
there actually called Terry Sprenkle. Said they would look at it. Let’s not talk about that here, you work
with Terry Sprenkle on that and get that looked at. They didn’t realize that that was the problem there.
They said when they did their walk down it wasn’t there, two years ago. Councilman Snyder said I can see how we get invited to walk throughs. A motion was made by Councilman Allar to have Steve to proceed representing Yoe Borough on that issue and get with whomever you need to, to get information
Dana or we may have here on file. The motion was seconded by Councilman Howett. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried. Thanks for coming. Mr. Morton said this winter when they plow the roads. I see salt on the sidewalk and we’ll need new sidewalks. Councilman Snyder said I seen that at the last storm we had and I saw how its now hitting up against the telephone poles, I was thinking
that its not going to take much to erode those things away and we’re going to have another problem. Cause it did, it looked like that water was easily jumping up two feet. Mr. Morton said a few years they picked the water running from Third Street across Elm. The ground washed out. They put a culvert in the street because the ground washing out. A portion of the storm drain is there. We were out cutting that drain open all the way. Not enough water is being captured as it is running down the hill. Councilman Snyder said thanks for coming tonight. Councilman Myers said for the council members that don’t know, Bob Morton and his wife have always been good community minded people. Bob was Council President for many years and also was President of the Fire Department. Karen was Sewer Authority. Mrs. Morton said still is. A lot council members don’t know. Thank you.
Councilman Snyder said on the agenda, the next thing we had was at 7:30PM, we’re go right into Solicitor’s report then. Was 7:30 adoption for the Flood Plain Ordinance. There was a slight miscommunication as to if the ordinance was advertised or not. They actually sent an ad to Sandy for review. When I heard we got the ad, that it was being advertised. The secretary said that isn’t what the cover letter said. Councilman Snyder said but that is how I took it when we got the ad for the flood ordinance. So I never told her to tell him its fine for adoption. And then, which actually works out for
our advantage, C. S. Davidson has been johnny on the spot with the comments from county planning and loy and behold by the twenty ninth or thirtieth of this month, we have the updated lastest and greatest revision which included the county’s comments. That is where we find out it was never advertised in the first place, so we put the screws to everything and said hold up, we still have time,
we will re-advertise for the September meeting and now we’ll actually take into account the comments that York County had and only have to advertise one time, we don’t have to do any amendments. So
that it actually works to our benefit. So that is why we didn’t hold up the meeting for that. So that is on the to do list for next month. Solicitor Solymos said let me further explain this, I sent it down to Sandy, saying we’ve prepared it and its ready to go. My fault I didn’t check that it wasn’t sent to the courthouse.
Councilman Snyder said it works out cause. Solicitor Solymos said I should have checked up on staffers,
usually what happens I do it, when it needs to be done immediately and therefore I hand it to some one,
get it today, tomorrow. But this time I gave it to someone, with a week and half to get it advertised. My fault. The secretary said I didn’t call you because it said I will advertise it the week of July 13th , so I
figured it would be done. And I don’t get the advertisement until. Solicitor Solymos said I should have followed up and said did you read that memorandum.
Pg. 10
Resolution 2009-12 Councilman Snyder said what was discussed at last month’s council, which I read
over the minutes so I got the gist of it. Resolution 2009-12 for the Borough
Council entering into the contracts for Flagger Force. A motion to resolve
Resolution 2009-12 was made by Councilman Myers. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Noll. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said so be it resolved.
Councilman Snyder signed the contract also.
Resolution 2009-13 Councilman Snyder said of course is to enter in with Members 1st Federal Credit Union, for the Secretary-Treasurer to move the four accounts that were discussed,
in the appropriate amount that she deems appropriate. And you do the official
wording. A motion to resolve Resolution 2009-13 was made by Councilman
Allar. The motion was seconded by Councilman Howett. All in favor.
Councilman Snyder said so be it resolved.
Solicitor’s Report
Chronister Solicitor Solymos said lets talk about Chronister. I spoke to the other attorney,
Matter obviously you know I was ill, we had it scheduled one time. Matter of fact, I was
ill, we had it scheduled twice. When we had it scheduled the third time, Mr.
Chronister thought he might get ill, so. Anyways. I waited I found out from
Mr. Desinee that the lawyers have five days available. And mainly this is for
Tom and Sam, these are the dates 27 and 28 of August, that is a Thursday
and Friday in the morning or 1, 2, 3 September. You don’t have to give me
answer now. Look at your calendars, see how that goes. I will call Jason
and see how that works with him and then we’ll set it up with the arbritrators.
Mr. Malesker said Jason is out to the seventeenth. Solicitor Solymos said
when is he getting married? Mr. Malesker said he got married on Saturday,
he is on his honeymoon right now. Solicitor Solymos said he’s out until
the seventeenth? Okay. Councilman Snyder said he wouldn’t be able to
get you an answer until then. Solicitor Solymos said I will drop him a line.
I knew he was getting married wasn’t sure if it was September or August.
So that is the status on Chronister, we’re pretty much been ready to go on
Chronister.
Appeal Solicitor Solymos said for your request we appealed the Bowser decision.
of Bowser It is here, you may review it. The secretary said we just got the appeal
Decision of the Bowser decision. Solicitor Solymos said with regard to the Bowser
application for his particular piece of property. We appealed the decision,
of the zoning hearing board per your request. That appeal was filed on
the 31st, timely at the prothonotary’s office through the Commonwealth,
will now send, what is called a precipe, to turn the record to the borough.
The secretary said I just got a registered mail notice from the prothonotary’s
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 11
office today, I’ll pick it up tomorrow. Gives me twenty days to put together
to produce record. I think I have most of the reproduced record already.
At least I have copy. Do you need to fax it over. I probably have it copied.
I have the zoning ordinance. The secretary asked should I call you and tell
you what it is and send it to me. Solicitor Solymos said then technically
the municipality has twenty days to submit its record which includes a
transcript of the proceedings. You are going to have to order it a transcript
of the proceedings. The secretary asked I call the stenographer, or do
I have to call Hoffmeyer. Solicitor Solymos said you call the stenographer,
to get it. You will have to call the Hoffmeyer office to find who the stenographer
was. We’ll take care of that. So you have some feel of what we’re doing here,
and what the concern of the municipality is, a building was built, a permit was
issued for a building which was a multi tenant occupancy, that was allowed in
the zone by special exception. It met all the criteria for the grant of that special
exception in the zone on the lot it was on. It can still be used as that, there was
a valid permit issued for that. And that is a permit that was requested by Mr.
Bowser with a backup letter by Mr. Bowser. Which was helpful to us for our
records. Going chapter and verse, section by the ordinance of section, showing
why he is entitled to that use. Mr. Bowser then somewhere during the course
of these proceedings, he decided that he either want to condoize it or sell
both sides as two separate units,subdivide it down the middle on a party wall.
Well now that’s a different type of use. As defined by our ordinance. That’s
not the use he got a permit to do. There were a lot of things he needed variances
for, he went in and asked for variances. And the zoning hearing board said you don’t really need a variance. A variance is just a request to modify change,
your ordinance for me, because I have a hardship. Generally speaking, variances
are quite difficult to get. Sometimes a municipality, through its own action, buys
a piece of property. Which normally would not be entitled haver vari, what I mean
they’re stuck with it. There’s two ways that a municipality, that, that can
happen to a municipality. The first is where the municipality does nothing. And
they allow a landowner to do something in perpetuity over years and years and
years, and the landowner is acting legitimate and thinks he has a right. We had
one in Springfield Township years ago, a guy came for a permit for a garage,
a three car garage. We didn’t realize that the doors were sixteen feet. When he
said a three car garage on a suburban home, he meant repair garage. The
municipality thought a regular garage. He did it for ten years. In fact he did
some work on some of the supervisor cars in that municipality. Supervisors
changed, they tried to shut him down, actually did. That is what is called a
variance by astople. Municipalities that stop it, you can’t come in and say
they can’t do it, because you’ve let them do it. That’s not the issue in this case.
There’s another way, where you issue a permit in error, and someone relies
on that permit, and builds his McDonalds in a residential zone. And the
municipality doesn’t appeal for more than thirty days. This guy has spent
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 12
a ton of dough. And then the municipality comes back and says oops sorry
guys we didn’t mean to do that, my bad I didn’t want to do that. Then this
land owner has a vested right, I have a right from the get go. The zoning
hearing board with regards to Todd’s application said, he had a vested right
to subdivide and therefore get all those variances. Because that’s what the
municipality gave him a permit for. Its my legal opinion, that the municipality
didn’t get him a permit to do that. He acquired no vested right. He changed
the use. If he had a vested right to run a ma and pa grocery store, selling ice cream
out a back window on 400 square feet, you don’t have a vested right to put
in a McDonalds. Even though there is some similarities between the uses. There
are similarities between these uses but they are different. In my opinion, he
acquired no vested right to go forward. So in the alternative, he says alright I do
need a variance. And our answer to the variance issues are you don’t, you may
need a variance but you can’t get a variance because you created the hardship of
which you complain. You’re the one that built this building, for one use, and then
come back and change your mind. Its not our fault. That’s the self created
hardship, of which you’re not allowed relief. That’s what we’re doing with that
case. What happens is, once the municipality on behalf of the zoning hearing
board files the record, I’ve got fifteen days to file a brief in support. I can request
two things, additional testimony, which I wouldn’t, and oral argument before
the court. Of which I won’t unless you tell me to. Cause I think we can do it,
just on the briefs. I don’t think we do it on the briefs. I don’t think there’s any
overly complicated on this matter. The zoning hearing board, I just don’t, from
reading the findings of fact that they handed down,just didn’t see what had
happened here. It was well presented on the other side to avoid the municipality
looking that way. The way I feel it should have. That’s the status with that.
Councilman Snyder said while we are still on the Bowser issue, let the record
be quite clear, that the appeal was based on motions made previously. And Mr.
Naylor did not take the oath of office for this council position until tonight.
The appeal had already been prefiled. So there is no improprieties or misgivings.
It did come to our attention when we were going over this, that Mr. Naylor did
speak out against the variance at the hearing. So there is no conflict of interest
with Mr. Naylor as far as this action, this appeal. Solicitor Solymos said and
for future records, Mr. Naylor. There would have been nothing wrong with you
appearing before the zoning hearing board or appearing before the zoning hearing
board on a matter that concerns you in the future. So long as you do not come
back in here, in the board, and take a motion to either vote against or in favor of
something that the municipality is doing with regard to a matter in which you
had a personal interest. Councilman Naylor said okay. Councilman Noll said
question on all that. You’ve looked at everything. And I believe from what I
understand that our zoning board lawyer, Mr. Buzzendore. Actually was part
of the reason we are doing this appeal because I don’t think he understood what
was going on. Is there anything we should be doing as a municipality, because
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 13
I believe he gave the zoning hearing board bad information. Solicitor Solymos
said well tragically only the zoning hearing board can select its solicitor to hire
and or fire. Councilman Noll said okay. Councilman Snyder said unfortunately
when I talked to Patti McGonagle, she thinks the sun rises and sets on Mr.
Buzzendore. That this whole thing, is because council did not make them aware
of our displeasure in what was going one. I said, well Patti, we can not tell you
because, there were issues like the fact they didn’t know that the subdivisions
had already been denied by the borough. And he was coming in thinking, he
could somehow get the variances, and then we’d be okay with it. And its like.
We can’t. Councilman Noll said we’re not legally allowed to do that. Councilman
Snyder said we can’t, we’re not allowed to do that. Solicitor Solymos said and
there were some patent misstatements that were made. Let’s not mistake it,
inaccuracies. Councilman Noll said I didn’t know if we had any grounds for
the way he’s appointed. Solicitor Solymos said the way he’s appointed, now
that doesn’t preclude anyone from approaching individual members and saying
the board is unhappy and this is the reason they are unhappy. I think that we
would look at other findings of fact handed down from other solicitors, myself
excluded for the current moment, and look at how findings of fact are drawn
versus what you have here. I’m sorry, it cost you money, because I had to
read it three or four times before I understood or at least before I thought I
understood what it was going to say. Unfortunately it doesn’t give you a very
clear history of what had happened. The whole idea of findings of fact is
to illuminate for you what the heck went on. That’s neither here nor there.
I think you’ve got a real good shot at it. Councilman Noll said thank you.
Uncertified Solicitor Solymos said and the only other thing is I haven’t gotten back to you,
Buildings Seth on the codes issues. Councilman Noll said on the uncertified buildings.
Solicitor Solymos said correct. But I will, I’ll give you a call this week, we’ll
either do it then or set a time. And I’ll get that back to council for their review
for the next meeting. And that’s all that have.
FYI on Mill Solicitor Solymos said you did put at my council place a letter on Mill Creek.
Creek I guess it was just a FYI letter. Councilman Snyder said yes.
Vacation Councilman Snyder said I’ll make it short and sweet. When I spoke with Mr.
Of Alley Naylor prior to him tonight, sometime last week I think. That I had an
opportunity to talk to him. And bringing up the issue of the vacation of the
alley, one thing that Mr. Naylor brought to may attention, which I thought
was very admirable at the time. He said that as of this moment, he felt he
was not going to pursue any further legal action or anything on trying to
acquire the alley. That he did not want, his position to come on council,
be tainted in any way thinking there was alterative motive. I commend
you on that one. Cause I think even my own personal with you, that people
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 14
get on council for their own personal agendas and that. There is no doubt then,
no one can say anything negative about you. Councilman Naylor said I just
wanted to have a clean plate starting here and no doubts. Solicitor Solymos
said I think that is good and I talked to your lawyer and he is doing some
paperwork that would cause the action to be withdrawn. And that would
put it back on hold. Frankly that doesn’t keep you on some date in the future,
even if you don’t take action, like I told you at the last meeting. Coming
back to the board again, council again, and say look maybe we ought to
look at the vacation of this alley.
Councilman Snyder said now I’m starting to get under the engineer. I had this marked solicitor/engineer.
FEMA Councilman Snyder said we did receive notice from FEMA that the flood
insurance study and flood insurance rate map evidently has not changed as
far as, the map itself. And therefore Yoe Borough should use the preliminary
and or revised preliminary copies of the firm, for the basis of adopting the
required flood plain management ordinance. From the last revision. We’re
suppose to be using this last revision as. Councilman Noll said the preliminary
has been revised but hasn’t changed. Mayor Sanford said I have copies of it
over there.
County’s Councilman Snyder said we did receive the county’s comments on the flood plain
Comments ordinance which now be addressed next month.
Codorus Councilman Snyder said the last thing that I had, was this letter from Codorus
Creek Creek on the watershed for the easement that was going out to the Army Corps
Letter of Engineers. And hopefully that is going to meet our requirement under that
cease and desist order of which point under the $27,500.00. After that if
there is no other comments for Pete we can move into engineer. So he can
leave. This is just one of these to let him know, if this meets all of our
requirements, he doesn’t have to worry about the fine. Anybody else
have anything for Pete?
Dates Councilman Snyder said while I was in there, Tom, between you and me
should I tell him between that Thursday and Friday, 27th and 28th or just
go to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Councilman Allar said I’d like to check on those