All meetings at Yoe Borough Municipal Building, 150 N. Maple Street, Yoe PA beginning at 7PM.
February 2,2010
March 2, 2010
April 6, 2010
May 4, 2010
June 1, 2010
July 6, 2010
August 3, 2010
September 7, 2010
October 5, 2010
November 9, 2010
December 7, 2010
Wednesday, January 6, 2010
Yoe Borough Minutes December 1, 2009
YOE BOROUGH PG. 1
150 NORTH MAPLE STREET
YOE, PA 17313
The regular monthly meeting of Yoe Borough Council was held on December 1, 2009 at the Yoe Borough Municipal Building, 150 North Maple Street, Yoe, PA. The meeting was called to order by Council President Sam Snyder at 7PM followed by the Pledge
of Allegiance.
Council Members in Attendance:
Sam Snyder
Barry Myers
Tom Allar
Bruce Manns
George Howett
Seth Noll
Others in attendance:
Sandy Sterner, Secretary-Treasurer
Dana Shearer, Maintenance
John Sanford, Mayor
Steve Malesker, Engineer
Pete Solymos, Solicitor
Minutes
Councilman Snyder asked if everyone had an opportunity to look over the minutes from the prior meeting, any additions or corrections? A motion was made by Councilman Howett to accept the meeting minutes of November 10, 2009. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Myers. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said minutes accepted.
Visitors
Councilman Snyder said let the record reflect no visitors.
Solicitor’s Report
Street Solicitor Solymos said on newer business I was requested to look into
Lights whether the municipality has to provide lights, they do not, street lights.
The public can petition to get street lights, however, a municipality is not
required to do street lights but if they do, they can levy a tax on it of up
to 8 mills for the street lights, there was a question of finding other sources
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 2
for the municipality. And that’s one possibility that you could look into
for your lights. There is also a possibility that you could possibly get
up to 5 mills for the roadways. I don’t know if that would jeopardizes
liquid fuels if you go and tax it yourself. That is something I’d have to
look into even more. But anyway that was in regard to that particular
issue.
Tax Solicitor Solymos said you’ve got the tax ordinance to adopt at 7:30.
Ordinance
Chronister Solicitor Solymos said at long last we have confirmation from everyone
Hearing and their uncle, on a hearing date for Chronister, which means the chances
Date of it being configured at good. It was hard to get everyone to commit at
the same time, I think we’re really good for that date. I’ll get in touch with
Sam and with Tom and coordinate with Jason to prepare our case for
that one. I’ll let you enjoy your holidays before I start. Councilman Snyder
said just one note, a mental note, I already talked to Pete, I do have a
doctor’s appointment that morning, but that shouldn’t be a problem to
make it to the hearing in the afternoon. There is only one date I wouldn’t
be available, I have an echo on the fourth so. Try to keep that in mind.
Solicitor Solymos said we’re on with that.
Bowser Solicitor Solymos said we’re on schedule to get the, Bowser, its not
really the Bowser case, argued. I think that’s basically it
The council went into executive session to discuss matters of potential litigation.
Letter Councilman Snyder said under solicitor’s there’s a couple of things that
sent out are going to crossover, one of course is Engineering. We did get the letter
to the sent out from C. S. Davidson to the sewer authority, that was dated the
sewer twelfth. And interestingly, enough, the reason I’m bringing it up under
authority solicitor, cause its probably going to be another source of litigation. We
did receive the copy of the minutes from the September sewer authority
meeting at which point, in essence, it says, they went over the issue at
hand, as far as the sink hole. They’re under the impression, the contractor
went out under the auspices of the township and that it is the township
interceptor at the manhole cover. And since the pipe was covering spring
water or a old storm drain, and wasn’t connected to any other pipe, the
sewer authority feels that it’s a drainage problem and it’s the borough’s
responsibility to pay for it. Therefore they have nothing to do with, it
has nothing to do with the sewer system. Now of course, this is one,
where five separate people are going to be involved with this. Cause
Aaron’s on the hook, they want paid, they don’t care who. You have five
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 3
other authorities, Yoe Borough, York Township, the sewer authority,
York Township Sewer Authority, Penn Dot. No one wants to own, and
Aaron is still patiently waiting on their reimbursement because it wasn’t
their fault. Seeing that’s how that went in September, I don’t expect too
much more coming out of the December meeting, they may not even
recognize it. Just be put on notice, I’m sure that’s going to be another
source of litigation and once it gets to that step. I don’t know maybe a
letter from Pete saying, look this isn’t going to go away any time soon
what if everybody ponies up a thousand bucks since its so intermingled.
Because what’s going to happen is, we’re going to spend easily thousand
and thousands of dollars in lawyers fees among the five authorities trying
to defend everybody’s position, somebody’s going to end up losing for
five thousand dollar fix. And the only one that is going to get rich is the
attorneys. Solicitor Solymos said but if it sticks in your crawl. Councilman
Snyder said I didn’t say you, the only one getting rich is Pete. Solicitor
Solymos said I was talking in general. Councilman Snyder said when
you’re going to get at least six attorneys involved in this. Solicitor
Solymos said we’re the only ones that are going to get paid, in a pratical
manner, we’re the only ones that are going to walk away clean on this.
Councilman Snyder said so I don’t know, again forewarned bringing it
up under solicitor’s report, food for thought. Solicitor Solymos said this
is only $5,000.00. Mr. Malesker said $4,173.41. Solicitor Solymos said
they’re should be a joint meeting of chairman of each on the authorities
representing the municipality, sit down, even the mayor, sit down and
say what are we doing. Councilman Snyder said I agree, if the sewer
authority doesn’t pony up to this, the reason it went back to them was
it was believed to be, a sewer connection problem with the sewer lateral
that was put in. As Steve, mentioned it was, who made the call? Mr.
Malesker said I believe it was Mark Clark. Councilman Snyder said
Mark Clark on behalf of the Yoe Borough Sewer Authority. Solicitor
Solymos asked Mark is the sewer authority’s engineer? Mr. Malesker
said Holley is. Councilman Snyder said through Holley and Associates,
they made the call to Aaron Enterprises, thinking it was a bad connection.
Aaron Enterprises did the work, they found out it wasn’t their connection,
now they want paid. Yeah, that’s why we don’t, hey look, if the sewer
authority directed them to go out and fix the work and it turns out not
be their work, the sewer authority directed them to go out and do it, sewer
authority should pony up for that expense. Solicitor Solymos said I agree.
Councilman Snyder said they’re saying not. Solicitor Solymos asked
who all is involved. Councilman Snyder said it’s the sewer authority,
Yoe Borough, York Township, York Township Sewer and PENN DOT.
Mr. Malesker said PENN DOT won’t do anything, they said they’d fix
the patch. We still have that issue. Councilman Snyder said its sitting
down there, its not been repaved to specs. And PENN DOT is going to
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 4
be hammering on someone’s door saying, well we didn’t cut the hole.
I just see this getting out of hand and again four thousand dollars we’re
going to spend more than that in legal fees just to try to defend a
position we all know Aaron had a good leg to stand on because they
were asked by an authority and go out and fix their problem, turns out
not to be their problem now they want compensated. Its. Mr. Malesker
said this happened at the end of June. Councilman Snyder said they’ve
been quite patient and I can’t believe they’re actual comment was Aaron
Enterprises is now seeking reimbursements for their cost, since is it
a drainage problem it’s the borough’s responsibility to pay. They’re
putting it back on us. It’s the borough’s responsibility to pay for it,
it has nothing to do with the sewer system. I think they’re forgetting
the fact on who authorized the work. You eluded to that in that letter.
Solicitor Solymos said well, what they don’t understand is legally they’re
bound to pay. Now should they get sued and Aaron wouldn’t sue anyone
else but them, they did the work for them. The authority can come back
and say, if I am liable then the borough is liable over to me because
the borough is the one that created the problem. But that would be all part
of joiner, and again the complications of the lawsuit could really be
interesting. Mr. Malesker said but the statement of the drainage through,
the borough is not going to be claiming any ownership responsibility for
the drain pipe that’s in there. Councilman Snyder said its not part of the
borough system, its not a storm drain. Number one, its probably a pipe
for spring water. Solicitor Solymos said I think between you and I, maybe
we can draft a response to this, to the authority and say hey. Mr. Malesker
said so they meet? The secretary said next Thursday. Solicitor Solymos
said they meet next Thursday, maybe we need a little response, tell them
one. First instance, you are responsible to pay it, we highly suggest you
pay them, then you sue us if you think we’re responsible. Councilman
Snyder asked should we have. Mr. Malesker said they haven’t had a
chance to respond to the letters, since they haven’t had a meeting.
Councilman Snyder said that’s what I was getting at, this is their mind
set right off the bat, now we sent them a little letter which was only a
paragraph, it wasn’t that strong. Its just that the borough feels its their
responsibility, they’re the ones that authorized it, its only a paragraph.
At this point, does council wish Pete, to make a phone call, doesn’t have
to be anything spectacular, to Mike Craley to get their attention. To say
look people, this is just bull. I mean. I see us spending, once it gets into,
the insurance carriers hands, this is going to get so out of hand when
everybody knows that. Councilman Allar asked who was Steve’s letter
addressed to? The secretary said Dennis Sarpen, Rodney Smith, Aaron
Enterprises and Sam Snyder. Councilman Snyder said at this point its
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 5
getting down to a legal issue, which is why I was thinking about having
Pete give Mike Craley a call, to say hey Mike do you really want to go
down this pike when everybody’s is going to hang, everybody’s going
to get lawyers involved for a four thousand dollar bill and here’s the
essence, your authority authorized the work. Solicitor Solymos said and
the question then becomes and we get right back to the point, if there’s
no responsibility for us, to settle it do we chip in municipal money to
get rid of it. I know how Tom has feelings on that and I understand them
but that’s one thing, What kind of authority do I have if I talk to Craley.
Or just suggest Craley that everybody should meet to discuss it amicable
resolution before anybody spends a fortune. I am suggesting he.
Councilman Noll said should it come from Pete or from you, or John.
Councilman Snyder said well at his point I’d like to get, I can’t
believe when reading those minutes there was no comments by the
solicitor at all. I can not believe, that’s why I wanted it to come from
Pete to Mike, to get Mike’s attention to say I can’t believe you’re.
Councilman Noll said is Mike their solicitor? Councilman Snyder said
he’s their solicitor. He’s not stupid, I can’t believe he left this go.
Councilman Allar said if Pete made a call, lawyer to lawyer, stress the
importance of the contractor, they made the authorization. I think Craley
needs to know that the authority incurred the legal obligation. I doesn’t
matter about the pipe, who owns the pipe or whatever. Councilman Snyder
said that’s down the road but we want decide how we want to handle the
pipe. Councilman Allar said they. Councilman Snyder said right now we
know that Aaron did some work, they weren’t responsible for it, and
they want reimbursed. Councilman Allar said and maybe Craley even
though I don’t know that what his knowledge is, but Pete could bring
him up to speed at some very critical points. Councilman Snyder said
it even says in their minutes, it was requested that the township notify
the contractor about the work and the settlement. According to Steve,
it wasn’t the township, it was their own sewer authority. I can see.
Councilman Allar said and the other step would be to ask Craley at
that meeting, to indicate the authority. Solicitor Solymos said if the
facts are, as I heard them here tonight, that the authority brought this
guy in to make the repairs, it is the authority that contracted, it is
the authority to owe. Can you imagine that if you tried to pull that on
someone on a deal, at Best Buys or something like that, well I didn’t want to buy that because I was led astray by so and so. Councilman
Snyder said exactly. Councilman Allar said don’t go with the shared
cost thing until. Councilman Snyder said I want them to own up to
it, but you have to get their attention, its not going to come with me
going to a meeting. Solicitor Solymos said I’ll call Mike and say, Mike,
educate me, I don’t how your people are not responsible for this contract,
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 6
no matter whose pipe it is or where it came from. Mr. Shearer said
one thing that I kind of wonder, not being there, when they got
to sewer connection and they found it wasn’t the problem, under
whose authority did they did further? Councilman Snyder said I don’t
know and I don’t care. At this point. Councilman Allar asked are you
saying that Aaron incurred more cost than necessary? Councilman
Snyder said that’s an issue if they want to take that up, right now I’m
just trying to get them if they want fight on that technicality. Mr.
Shearer said what I’m saying is, Mark Clark was standing there and
what’s his name from PENN DOT were standing there when they
dug it. Mr. Malesker said Terry Sprenkle. Mr. Shearer said okay, if
Aaron dug to that sewer connection and that wasn’t the problem and they
dug further to that pipe to find the problem. Then somebody had
authorized that. Councilman Snyder said that’s what I’m saying, they
need to own up to this. All the players from the sewer authority, if they
want to drag in York Township’s sewer authority and stuff and try to
get some money from them, fine, but first they need to own up to is and
say not say it’s the borough’s responsibility. A motion was made by
Councilman Noll that Pete call to the solicitor of the sewer authority
and present the borough’s position and let them know. Solicitor Solymos
said I’ll confirm that in a letter and copy you guys. The motion was
seconded by Councilman Howett. All in favor. Councilman Snydre
said motion carried.
Street Councilman Snyder said we have a couple more minutes before we have
Lights to go into that ordinance. Back to solicitor type of things. And right in line
Considera- with budget and the ordinance, something to consider for next year. As
tion Pete indicated, what he found out about the street light and he said he
would not, he didn’t say that but he would not recommend eliminating
the street lights you already have. Solicitor Solymos said oh no, unless
none of you want to get elected, that could be resolved real quick. So.
In trying to, to figure out ways to help pay for them, we all know its
coming up. We did try and bring back up the budget issue that you had,
had. I checked back with the Pennsylvania Boroughs Association and
we can not institute the business privilege tax. The way the tax law is
currently written it was just redone a couple years ago, the screwed up
the language so if the tax was not in effect prior to 1998 you can not
institute it. If it was already instituted you can change, you can up the
mileage. If you didn’t have it on the books then, you can’t institute it at
this point. They’re trying to get that rectified, but it hasn’t been yet so
Yoe Borough can not institute that. She of course also mentioned about
the tax for street lighting under section 13.02 of the Borough Code, now
she did point out and this where maybe you were getting at, Seth. You can
go up to the 8 mills for street lighting. Based on our, current assessed
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 7
value of roughly of 32 million dollars, a ½ mill would generate would
roughly $15,000.00 give or take some pennies. So if you do, a ½
mill street light tax, and add with our real estate, like we have the fire
tax, and that generates the $15,000.00 give or take, you have to use
actually figures to figure what it supposedly would generate and you
are going to have some delinquents, so figure $15,000.00. She did
enlighten me that and she was going to fax that down here next week,
anything that you need in excess of that amount can come out of
liquid fuels for street lighting but you can not use liquid fuels strictly
for street lighting, it has to be used in conjunction with a street lighting
tax. So if we were going to institute a ½ mill street light tax, and then
we come to find out that our street lights are coming in at $22,000.00,
we wouldn’t need to raise taxes again but we could take that extra
portion out of liquid fuels to make up any difference. That would solve
the problem of real estate tax, that isn’t going for anything, it is, its going
specifically for street lighting, it’s a definite proposal it can only be used
for that, just like our fire tax. At the same point, we could then, swap the
$16,000.00 we have in our budget take that out of the budget and move
that around and that frees up some well needed funds out of our general
operating budget. So I’m just bringing that up as we get into our taxes
for next year, we have to think about it ahead of time because there are
statutory obligations here as far as, advertising, you can’t just do it,
have a budget, pass a tax. I think that tax has to be instituted separately
and then it has to be incorporated. Solicitor Solymos said we’d have
to pass it be separate ordinance. Councilman Snyder said a separate
ordinance and then it has to be incorporated with the general tax at
the end of year. Councilman Noll said if we need to lower the tax.
Councilman Snyder said then you can always lower it, you don’t know
what electric is going to do, you can always. You were worried on
how we can open up a budget in mid year. We really can’t this is an
area that we can actually that we can look at it, ear mark it for something
in particular that frees up something from general budget and we know
we’re only working with a half a mill at that point. Councilman Noll said
like you say, if we do get into trouble, it opens up another avenue that
we can. Councilman Snyder said the liquid fuels. Councilman Noll said
we might not want to do that but. Councilman Snyder said exactly, it
gives us some lead way. The other thing while we’re talking about
funding, again its under Solicitor’s Report. Go over this briefly before
we go into this ordinance. I did check as far as for loans because we know
Loans that this project is coming up potentially with the storm sewer. After you
borrow $125,000.00 that is what kicks into DCED for approval, you need
to have resolutions and a stack of papers need to be filled out, she did not
know of anybody that’s ever been denied. There is a maximum amount
that can be loaned, its 250% of our borrowing base. Which is calculated
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 8
three years of average revenue. So based on 07 to 09 budget, our base
rate, she calculated it, is $317,568.00, would be our base borrowing rate.
We can then borrow no more than the 250% of that, or $793,920.00
which means the maximum project that we could do with an H2O
grant which is a 50/50, if you bump to say $800,000.00, is a 1. 6 million
dollar project. So if Steve comes back to us in May and says I have a
2 million dollar project for you, we know we’re going to be slicing and
dicing right off the bat. If its under that 1.6million it should go as far
as borrowing is concerned. Councilman Allar said that’s very important
information. So I wanted to bring that up under solicitor, cause again
that’s going to be involved with him, if we go through with the project.
And of course, right in line with our taxes and stuff. Councilman Myers
said that program that PENN DOT that lends you money, Loganville
did it with that by pass around Loganville, do you know about that?
Mr. Malesker said yes I could check into that. Councilman Myers said
that was a loan with PENN DOT, PENN DOT has its own program.
Mr. Malesker said I’m not sure about that, is that PENN VEST?
Councilman Myers said I don’t know, they’ve done it and other
municipalities have done it. I don’t know how that works. Councilman
Allar said the criteria is pretty much the same, as long as we know
what we qualify for, its probably going to be the same. Solicitor
Solymos said a lot of municipal authorities now and municipal
governments now are getting into LERTA, which is something,
inter city types, rehabilitation, but I think that the law has been
handling, I’d ask you to look into that cause I want to research
how you get the money. LERTA is a funding for depressed areas,
areas that need rehab, and its amazing what areas need rehab.
Areas of Shrewsbury qualified for LERTA. I’m thinking of inner
city of Philadelphia when I’m thinking LERTA, I think Yoe would
be much closer than rural townships. Councilman Snyder said well
we’re classified as low income town, the whole town is, that’s why
we’ve got so many CDBG grants. Solicitor Solymos said I’m wondering
through LERTA can we get some money for this kind of project.
Councilman Myers said can you, now this is a dream, you know you
have a sewer authority, you have a Yoe Dallastown Water Authority,
can you have a road authority? Can a road authority tax, can a road
authority be set up like a sewer authority? Councilman Snyder said well
one, before Pete is going to have to research that, one of the things that
she told me, I said well if that’s the maximum that we can borrow,
what about questions about putting out bond, just trying to throw out
different ideas as to what is going to be in our best interest in how to
fund it. She actually gave me the phone number to legal department of
DCED and said to ask those types of questions into like putting out
a bond that probably get involved in creating an authority. Mr. Malesker
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 9
said when you apply for that grant, they encourage you to create a
municipal type of board, whether a transportation authority,
whatever you want to follow. So you are keying with other
municipalities to apply for the grant. Councilman Snyder said
we’ll have enough to go for ourself. Mr. Malesker said right.
Solicitor Solymos said that’s something, that you can talk to
other municipalities, a regional authority is a point well taken.
Councilman Snyder said okay, so that’s the information that I
have. It was just brought up under solicitor because he would
be involved in that and it brings us to our next item which
we’re running a little late for.
Recessing the Current Meeting at 7:40PM
A motion was made by Councilman Noll to recess the current meeting at
7:40PM to open up a public hearing. The motion was seconded by
Councilman Howett. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion
carried.
Public Hearing for Ordinance 2009-05
Councilman Snyder said I’d like to open up the public hearing for Ordinance
2009-05. An ordinance fixing the mileage rate for the year 2010 for general
revenue purposes. So first before we actually do that, we have to pass the
2010 Yoe Borough Budget. So I know there was some discussion last month,
Seth, with what I found out for the street lighting stuff, you feel a lot better
knowing that option in mid year. Any other questions concerning the budget?
A motion was made by Councilman Allar to accept Yoe Borough 2010 Budget.
The motion was seconded by Councilman Myers. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said budget’s accepted. In conjunction with that then, is there public
comment. Let the record reflect no public comment. Have any council comment
on the Ordinance 2009-5, fixing the mileage rate for 2010 for general revenue
purposes, 2.955 mills for general revenue, .103 for annual fire tax. Any
discussion. A motion was made by Councilman Howett to adopt Ordinance
2009-05. The motion was seconded by Councilman Noll. All in favor.
Councilman Snyder said so be it ordained.
Closing of Public Hearing and Restarting the Regular Meeting
A motion was made by Councilman Howett to close the public hearing and
to restart the regular meeting at 7:42PM. The motion was seconded by
Councilman Manns. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said hearing is adjourned.
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 10
Councilman Snyder asked anything else for the solicitor? Mr. Malesker said actually
if you wouldn’t mind staying for this first part. Councilman Snyder said anything
else for the solicitor?
Park Councilman Noll said we had talked about the last time about when new
and houses are built in the borough, if park and rec fees could be charged?
Rec Councilman Snyder said didn’t I bring that up last time, no remembers
Fees me bring that up. Cause I thought, wasn’t sure if I brought it up when
you weren’t here or not. Basically before we can charge that, we need
to have a rec plan in place. We don’t have a rec plan. Councilman Noll
said what is the prerequisite for is there an outline for a rec plan. Councilman
Snyder said York County Planning is actually looking in on that, Terry
Ruby is looking in on that. She knows we are in the process of doing our
comprehensive plan that actually needs to be done first and then you can
incorporate rec plan into it. She’s trying to look at our 1964 comp plan to
see if that had enough in there but she said one of the criteria before you can
charge that rec fee, is that you need specific goals in mind for the red. Which
is why you need a rec plan. Like say you want to build a new building, and
then you are working towards that goal. Just because you have a rec plan,
that says you want to keep the parks in good working order, you just institute
the $1500.00 money. Like if we say we want to put in new park equipment,
okay, well it doesn’t say what type of equipment but if its part of our rec
plan then we could be charging the fee. Councilman Noll said its parking,
whatever else we need access too. Councilman Snyder said infrastructure
repairs, land acquisition. Councilman Noll said we need a rec plan first
before. Councilman Snyder said what she was actually looking at, and then
of course we came into the holidays, is to see if that met with our 1964 comp
plan which since I haven’t heard any phone calls back, I doubt if it did.
Councilman Noll said so in three to five years we might be able to do that.
Councilman Allar said if you want to put something together, I think last
month you volunteered. Councilman Noll said when you talked about rec,
I didn’t realize how it was all interrelated, I know what it is. Councilman
Allar said whatever get ready, I’ll incorporate it into the timeline. Councilman
Noll asked is that in the borough code anywhere, what a rec plan, where
you can find it. Mr. Malesker said I’m sure Teresa would be able to help.
Solicitor Solymos said she’d have forms of other rec plans. Be an example
somewhere, I don’t think you’d have guidance from the borough code other
than the extent of how you’re able to formulate such a plan. Councilman Noll
asked who is the person I need to contact? Councilman Snyder said Terry
Ruby. Mr. Malesker said her name is Teresa, but you can call her Terry.
Councilman Snyder said I’m not sure who she was having look over the old
comp plan, but she hasn’t got back to me yet saying that met criteria. But
if you have another question anyways, you can. Councilman Noll said I’m
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 11
sure she has some kind of outline to give me. Councilman Allar said
you know how to keep our options open. Councilman Snyder asked
anything else for the solicitor?
Engineer’s Report
Flood Mr. Malesker said what I wanted to start out with, was the flood
Im- impoundment project. As you know, we had applied for a grant of
pound- $51,550.00 I believe through the Growing Greener. We had sent correspondence
ment to Wayne Lingle in September, we had asked if the funds were available,
Pro- he had said yes they were. And we said we didn’t have the permits, we told
ject him we were working on securing the permits. He said to forward those
once we get them. So now, last week we come to find that he said that,
that type of project is not eligible for the funding, the $51,000.00. So we’ve
been talking to Wayne, he said I need to talk to Jack Hill from DEP. And
we tried to call Jack Hill, he must have been out all last week, he hasn’t
answered any voice mail. He’s not in this week. He wants to talk to them.
Hopefully we can get this worked out, he knew all along the project at hand.
I know it was last year sometime it was changed from dredging to flood
impoundment restoration and that’s what they agreed would be funded. The
dredging was taken out of the project name and so, they had granted approval.
And now are saying, its ineligible. So hopefully we can get things worked out
with DEP, otherwise I’m not sure what recourse, if someone says, yes we
approve you for those funds, and then all of sudden says. Solicitor Solymos
said total immunity by any state employee, I don’t, any state employee or
agent on their interpretations. I have some reservations, but I could look into
it. Councilman Snyder said to complicate matters Steve, last month, we had
actually awarded contracts based on having the money. Mr. Malesker said
nothing has been signed yet. Councilman Snyder said it hasn’t been signed
but we accepted the low bid. Mr. Malekser said but you have ninety days to
act on that, so you have time. I think we can get it worked out, but. I don’t
know. Solicitor Solymos said once I get involved, even if I can win it, its
a few years down the road. Cause they’ll say no right from the get go, unless
its so clear that, they have to fund. We’d had to talk to someone in their
legal department. Mr. Malesker said it was approved by York County Planning,
it was approved by the Board of Commissioners, made the recommendations.
Solicitor Solymos said how bout I call you this week and you can give me
more information. Mr. Malesker said okay. Maybe Jack can talk to Wayne and
then Wayne will realize, okay this isn’t just a dredging project, its restoration
and then the sediment approval. Councilman Allar asked when you call up there,
did you get the feel that Jack is still on leave, I know he hasn’t gotten back to you.
Is he on vacation, do you know he’s actually there? Mr. Malesker said no.
Councilman Allar said you have to cross the secretary to find out. Mr. Malesker
said the secretary, you talk to her, leave the name, she doesn’t indicate that
Engineer’s Report Page 12
he is physically there or whatever. Councilman Allar said don’t make a
special call, but if you do again, just ask if he’s there. If he’s there and
not calling you back, that’s something serious. If he’s on vacation and
this other guy doesn’t know when he’s coming back, maybe its just
a misunderstanding. Mr. Malesker said which I hope I still wanted
everybody to know what was going on because potentially it’s a serious
issue. Councilman Allar said but they would have had time to talk,
if he was there, they would have talked. Mr. Malesker said and they’re
in the same building you know. Councilman Noll said do you have
anything in writing that says the money is there. Mr. Malesker said
there is approval from last year that York County Planning has.
Councilman Allar said the last time I met with Hill and Danko, out
there at that one sight, we shook hands and I asked specifically, I always
like to touch base on this two or three times. Yeah everything is fine,
just waiting for the Corps. We are already to go. Mr. Malesker said
and we have that with the Corps, and that’s when we sent that letter in
September and said Wayne, yes, we’re waiting . So I think, I think
Jack’s good for that, I think he’ll come through for us. Councilman Allar
said he could be overwhelmed. Councilman Noll said he could want to
go back and look back over it. Councilman Snyder asked anything on
that other $30,000.00? Mr. Malesker said no. We haven’t heard anything
on that? Councilman Allar asked when did you talk to Felicia? Mr. Malesker
said I talked to Felicia last week, there shouldn’t be a question on that
because that’s a separate issue. Councilman Allar said but she hasn’t said
the county has it, they still don’t have the $30,000.00 at this time? Mr. Malesker
said she hasn’t said that but she is the one that suggested that we make that
request. Councilman Allar said but at that time she didn’t know how much we
could get. Does she know that we need $30,000.00, but we only need $15,000.00
because I assume this is match, because that’s another thing to keep in mind
for the mitigation. Because even if we get Growing Greener, we still have to
match it, it’s a 50/50 match. If we get $30,000.00 we have to match the
$30,000.00. But we don’t need $60,000.00, we only need 15 to match that.
Mr. Malesker said what she had asked for was additional costs have incurred
since the original scope of the project. So that’s why, we brought that up,
what we receive for the mitigation plan and for the construction of the wetlands.
Councilman Allar said like you say, if we are lucky enough to get that, we
still have to match.
DCED Councilman Snyder said I just am to inform council, I did receive a notice
Grant from Representative Miller’s office that the $11,000.00 is not available.
from Its been pulled of the budget, while it was earmarked, it got lost in the
Rep. budget shuffle. He was holding off, there’s a House Bill, he said the number
Miller its like 1482 or something like that, that was supposedly going to try got
get some of this money back in with the DCED grant. That wasn’t placed
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 13
in. Councilman Allar said don’t lose contact, cause this is a pending bill.
Councilman Snyder said well he said he doesn’t even expect anything for
next year,the fiscal year. Councilman Allar said that would go a long way
for our match. Councilman Snyder said because I even had to call and
question, because its like, this was money for fiscal year 08-09 and that
was the cycle we were in. And I said shouldn’t that already been given
to you. He just sorta laughed, and said it got lost somewhere. So that
money is gone.
Councilman Snyder said along with that there was an email that came for
those who have email. There was an email that Seth got, a round about
way. Councilman Noll asked does Pete have our meeting dates? Councilman
Email Snyder asked are we getting you this time. Solicitor Solymos said I think
its you this time, I went to Hallam Borough last, I may go to both. Hallam
Borough has been very quiet. Councilman Snyder said this was a round
about way that this came to us. Evidently Gary Peacock from York County
has a project going with York Township, Rob Miller. Rob Miller was nice
enough to send it along to Seth because he knew about our wetlands going on
down there. Seth forwarded it along to Steve and myself and I guess here
at the office. And just thought it was good information to have. I contacted
Gary back. To say hey, wait minute what about us. I don’t want to rain on
your parade but, if this is a grant here, to see if we would qualify for it. Gary
actually got back to me yesterday, very short, quick email, yes your project
would qualify, here’s the information. I forwarded that quickly to Steve, that
was late yesterday, there is two Grant opportunities. One is this National
Grant Fish and Wildlife Foundation and the other one is the Funding for Environmental
Oppor- Efforts Focused on Delaware and Susquehanna River Watersheds. Both are for
tunities restoration of wetlands and they’re looking for small projects, $10,000.00,
$20,000.00. So we fit right it that. Steve, I will now turn it over to you, to find
out what you find and is it a cost effective for us to yeah and go ahead and
apply for the money or not. I mean if he comes back and says its going to
be $1500.00 to do the application. Mr. Malesker said on the Fisheries and Head-
waters Grant Program, I don’t think that’s going to work. Because they have
for the project type, under the sports fish restoration tract, they did have wetland
creation and improvement although that is only in Delaware. So I don’t
think that would work but the other two, the Five Star Restoration Program and
the Cora L. Brooks Foundation, are grants are possibilities. Neither one of them
would take whole lot of time. I was actually thinking that Jake in his position,
maybe be able to do this for free, apply for these grants, with competitive
watershed. Councilman Allar asked what are the deadlines? Mr. Malesker said
for the Five Star is. Councilman Snyder said looks like December 18th. Mr.
Malesker said the Five Star is January. Councilman Snyder said 11th, I see
one of them is January 11,2010. Mr. Malesker said this one for the Cora L.
Brooks Foundation, you have to contact the Foundation no later than December
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 14
18th by email or phone to request an application check list. So, if you contact
them for checklist, then you don’t need to submit until actually January 10 for
that one. You contact them by December 18th, they send you the checklist of
the items you need to submit and they call this one, anonymous grant. Although
this is for not for profit organization as determined by IRS Tax Code 501C3.
Which I don’t know if the borough qualifies for that but I think the Codorus
Watershed would, the program that Jake works for. Councilman Allar asked,
Steve can you email all that to Jake and I’ll follow up. Mr. Malesker said
sure and then the other one, called the Five Star Restoration Program. Its
called Five Stars because partnerships can include at least five organizations
that contribute to the projects success through funding land or technical support
and/or in kind services. So the local governments, would be part of that, York
Township would be part of that, Yoe Borough, I don’t know if York Township
Rec Board would be, I think the Mill Creek Preservation whatever that’s called,
that’s part of the rec board. And then Jake’s group and then any local
environmental consultants, ecologists. Councilman Allar said however with
CDBG, personal problems with going after the money for the project. Mr.
Malesker said what he does for, for the Foundation, is separate from his
construction company. Councilman Allar said I understand, he doesn’t want
to raise a challenge. Councilman Myers said Aquatic Research does that too,
bid on them. Councilman Snyder said since these deadlines are looming. Mr.
Malesker said I can send Jake an email tomorrow. We are trying to set up a
meeting anyway to talk about the mitigation plan. Councilman Allar said you
were going to meet on Monday. Mr. Malesker said well we sent Jake an email,
he said last week was shot, possibly Monday of this week but he came back
and he couldn’t this week, he is booked this week too. So we’re trying to
coordinate a date, get something early next week. I imagine he’s probably
familiar with these two anyways. Councilman Snyder said but if not, I’m
trying we’re looking at a tight deadline. Mr. Malesker said the other one all
you have to do is request the check list. So I can easily do that. Councilman
Snyder that’s what I was going to say, I want to get a motion here, that in the
event this falls through that Jake doesn’t want to do this, you said it was
probably going to be minimal, what do estimate, and I know we can’t hold
it to it. Mr. Malesker said I don’t know what the check list is for this, because
you have to request it. I agree that Jake would be able to do both of these as
part of his foundation. Councilman Snyder said that’s what I wanted to make
clear with council, get a motion going now, $500.00 each is what you estimate,
understand that it is just a rough estimate so if we see a bill for $750.00 don’t
be surprised. I literally just sent this to him like at 4:30 PM yesterday because
that’s when I got it from Gary. He just looked at, he probably looked at it last
night on your own time, so I behalf of the borough I do appreciate that and
recognize that you did look over this on your own time. Understand that if
your estimate to fill it out is wrong, that’s totally understandable. Get a motion
to have him do it in the event that Jake can’t, we’re working on a tight deadline
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 15
here, that if for some reason Jake says look I have given enough free gratis
to Yoe, whatever reason. I know you’ve been pounding him pretty heavy
too. Councilman Allar said he saves us a lot. Councilman Snyder said yeah,
that’s what I’m saying, he may say, I may have enough time invested in
this, I can’t. Then we can fall back on the motion as long as Steve knows
about it, get this rolling and try to meet these two deadlines. Especially
with losing Ron Miller’s money now, I do see that they are giving grants
in one to fifteen thousand, Hey even five thousand dollars right now is
worth it. Mr. Malesker asked does the borough qualify as a not for profit
organization. Councilman Snyder said we are. Councilman Noll said we
don’t have 3C status. Mr. Malesker said so you may not be eligible for
the Cora Brooks Foundation. Jake’s company would be. Councilman Snyder
said and that’s what you could find out, if he doesn’t want to do, if he
can’t do the application for it because of his other work, maybe we could
put it through his name. You apply for it. That you could work out with him.
I just want the motion that if he can’t get these grant requests in line and
you know about it, you follow up on it. A motion was made by Councilman
Noll that Steve check into both grants, and try to Jake Romig to fill out
the grants if willing and able, but if Steve needs to do it, to spend an
estimated $500.00 for each grant application, make arrangements to get
the grants applied for. The motion was seconded by Councilman Allar.
All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried. Councilman Myers
said maybe what you could, I would have to talk to the fire department,
we are a 3C, if it doesn’t cost Yoe Fire Company nothing, use our name
and you guys do the work. It would be like. Mr. Malesker asked what
would the fire company’s part be, would they assist with manpower or.
Councilman Myers said we would assist with our name and our 3C,
you guys Yoe Borough would have to do it. It would be just like, Isaac
Walton, they did that for years, all they did was use their name. Councilman
Snyder said you know what the reason would be, this is relocating
wetlands from upstream dam, that is in need of dredging and reconditioning,
if that dam is not reconditioned, it would impede the fire department if
it would fail therefore it is in the best interest of the fire department to
see that the upstream dam is redesigned and the wetlands moved elsewhere.
Councilman Myers said as long as it doesn’t cost Yoe Fire Company anything.
Councilman Snyder said motion was carried. Seth, the next time you see Rob
Miller, thank him, its good information, we would have never known about it.
Councilman Noll said that’s why I say, its always good to keep in contact
with the bigger municipalities. Councilman Snyder said this was, especially
evidently Gary’s working on something with these people. Now we’re going
to be, he is recommending they apply for it. So we’re going to be in competition
so to speak with them. So thank them on our behalf, that was good information.
Gary was a pretty short and sweet. Councilman Myers asked so I should bring
this up to the fire company board and stuff. Mr. Malesker said yes. Councilman
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 16
Snyder said just in case. Mr. Malesker said since we have a tight deadline,
it wouldn’t hurt to have a plan B. Councilman Snyder said and thank you
for looking over that last night. That was really a big help. If you saw
the date, I was waiting on a response from him for a week and a half.
And he waited until the day before the council meeting. I appreciate
that. Mr. Malesker said no problem. Back to the flood impoundment
restoration. The contract documents have not been executed yet so
we’ll just hang on to those. The borough has ninety days to act. Hopefully
we’ll get that worked out and then if we do in the next week I can just
bring the documents, its already been awarded, the borough already
awarded it, so you don’t need to a motion to sign the contracts or anything,
I could bring those down and they could be signed and then work out
a notice to proceed date. Set up a preconstruction conference and get that
started. Councilman Allar said did you work out that insurance issue?
Mr. Malesker said their insurance, they resubmitted their certificate of
insurance and it has been approved so. Councilman Allar asked let me
know when those meetings are. Mr. Malesker said sure. I know Tom
wants to be aware, be invited to the preconstruction meeting. I would
send it to you and Dana, I have Seth’s email and Tom. Mr. Shearer
said you may want to invite Rob Miller. Councilman Noll said get
York Township involved. Mr. Malesker said as far as the dump site,
I never got a call from the guy from Red Lion. Councilman Allar said
yeah. Mr. Malesker said I guess he had told Jeff that it was too much
for them to do. Councilman Allar said in the interest to try and save
money, I had talked to the Rec Director a long time ago. He has
about thirty teams who play and they have tournaments, have parents
that have their own construction companies. He had told me at one,
that they could, they would know what they were doing and would
be take care of the E & S, taking it out and so forth. The Red Lion
Council went ahead and passed a motion that we would do that, in
the contract because the rec association is not talking to the council
at this point. I went back and confirmed with the red and he said yeah
they’ll do that and talk to council. They were willing to go back and
change the motion and then what, the rec guy contacted his best
contractor who happens to be on a three week hunting trip. And he
can’t deal with by the time he gets back. We were going to see a savings
of at least 3, 4 thousand dollars. Mr. Malesker said we haven’t seen the
schedule of values that have been put. Councilman Allar said we could
have had the rec association put a thousand in, saved by using the contractor,
but it didn’t work out. Mr. Malesker said if the project’s delayed. Councilman
Allar said I didn’t get the date when the guy’s coming back. He is not
going to make that commitment on the telephone. Mr. Malesker alright.
On that same project, you asked me to put out a scope of work for the remaining
engineering that is going to be required for that project so, attached to the
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 17
engineer’s report then, are all the tasks associated and on the flip side of that,
is the cost associated with each task. So there is a written scope there of what
we’d be providing for construction survey, stack out, contract admin, as built,
project representations and construction impact inspection. And I estimated,
I guessed it would be around $10,000.00 that’s where we are at $10,125.00 so.
Councilman Snyder said at least now we know, we can start separating the two
projects out when it comes to the wetlands and when it comes to the dam project,
impoundment project because its starting to get too convoluted, now we know we
have a $93,000.00 contract, expect $10,000.00 in engineering now we have the
exact figures and we can go from there. Mr. Malesker said a couple months ago,
I gave you a similar wetland mitigation plan. Councilman Snyder said that’s the
$30,000.00 figure. Mr. Malesker said that was an estimate for the construction
for that. Councilman Snyder said I think that was that month that I was not here.
Mr. Malesker said the separate engineering costs were broken down for all that
so, so we should have a pretty clear scope and project for all that. If you have any
questions on any of the scope please let me know.
Park Mr. Malesker said first thing I want to talk about is, Legend Construction has
asked for an extension of their contract time, the reason that they have asked for
that, is they say they’ve been delayed due to the playground equipment delay.
Playground installation was scheduled for November 2nd, and due to no fault
by Legend the installation didn’t take place until November 16th. They also
have experienced nine days of rain exceeding 4/10 of an inch in October and
November. So they want, the contract is set up that there’s liquid damages of
$500.00 a day for each day they’re beyond the contract time. With their six
day extension, the contract time goes to 12/28/09 initially it was December 22.
Until the end of the contract. He’s hoping that he doesn’t need that, but he
wanted to give himself a buffer. Councilman Noll said we actually told him that
now would be the time to ask for extension because we won’t have another
council meeting until the end of the year. We talked about it, I don’t feel that’s
it’s a problem, he knows it has to be done by the end of the year. He’d like that
cushion. Mr. Malesker said he’s worried about that $500.00 a day. We set that
up. Councilman Noll said it got his attention. Councilman Snyder said we’d
be losing the DCNR grant. Mr. Malesker said we’re not asking for the additional
money just asking for the change from December 22 for substantial completion
until December 28th, which still be in accordance with the DCNR specs.
Councilman Snyder said which actually I’m surprised he went for that, because
you have December 24th and December 25th in there the holidays and probably
right after that you have a weekend. Mr. Malesker said well actually what he
had thought. He had asked for thirteen days, what we had in our records as
far as when the contract runs as started, we have the wheel that we use for the
dates, we had December 22nd as the last date. He was must have been thinking
that it was. Councilman Noll said he thought it was that December 15. So really
we are not giving him much. Mr. Malesker said six days. A motion was made by
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 18
Councilman Howett to grant Legend Construction the extension. The motion
was seconded by Councilman Myers. All in favor. Councilman Snyder
said motion carried. Councilman Allar said are things moving along, are
all the bills in. Mr. Malesker said we talked about last month, we got the
letter about getting an extension on the DCNR grant itself. When I talked
to Lori about scheduling the final meeting, I said we’re going ask for
an additional thirty days. Don’t bother. Its got to be spent by December 31st.
She said if you run into problems, middle of December talk to Beth and we
can work something out, but don’t ask for the extension because it won’t
be granted at this time. So I didn’t even bother spending the effort to send
that in. We do have the final inspection still set for December 17th, which
Mitch is still planning on meeting. He doesn’t have to have the entire sight
done, he has to have the handicap parking, needs to be done, the signs need
to put up, playground equipment needs to be put in, the equipment should
be done this week. Councilman Noll said I hadn’t been up since Thanksgiving.
Mr. Shearer said they have everything mulched in, they put the boards in.
The only thing that they have left to install up in that area, is the three
barbeque grills, and then they have to put in the basketball net. They’re pretty
done with the landscaping. Councilman Noll said the bathrooms are close.
Mr. Shearer said the new doors are on, the drain pipes are in, the floors are
patched, plumbing is run, need to put in all fixtures, the metal roof is on, on
top of the barbeque pit, the water line is run. Councilman Noll said the coating
has been put on the old roof. Mr. Malesker asked are all the temperature sensitive
things taken care of, besides the staining. Mr. Shearer said yes. Councilman Noll
said I think everything else worked out, there was a permit issue with having
to do with the transition between the inside dining area and outside. We redid
the prints. We redid what Code Administrators wanted. That was taken care of.
Then Code Administrators in the interest of helping the borough, decided to give
us a violation notice so there was not a permit issued for the installation of the
playground equipment. What were doing is, we’re going to do that as a municipal
permit, a zoning permit because the way the state law is written under Chapter
403, they are not exempted from the permit, residential are exempted, the building
code doesn’t recognize any building inspection standard for playground
equipment. So it can be done under a zoning permit, which I’ve been checking,
Dan’s been checking, Steve’s been checking so really it comes down to the
borough, the borough can issue itself a permit to do the work. We’ll do that.
And they don’t need to be involved in it. That is all worked out. Suppose to pave
Friday, this Friday. Mr. Shearer said it really depends on the playground guys
getting out of the way. Regrade everything, to do the pave. Councilman Noll said
it’s a little sloppy right now but its coming together. Clipping of paths. Mr.
Shearer said the roads that they have cut in and stoned, Legend had cut in and
stoned, the playground guys dumped three tractor trailer loads of mulch in so they
had to come and recut the roads and do some other things. They were setting the
light pole today. Councimlan Noll said my opinion is that Legend has done a
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 19
great job, playground people, the installation the workmanship I would
say was good, the timing was bad. They are not team players, they are
on a state contract. There is nothing wrong with the work. Things have
been rolling with the interior, the cabinets should be coming in a couple
of days. Councilman Allar said Steve again the deadline for the payment,
how does that work? Do they have to have the bill up in Harrisburg.
The secretary said we got a check yesterday for $63,000.00, I will be
paying some to George Ely. Mr. Malesker said the costs need to be
incurred so. If the playground equipment is in, that’s the grant was
for $70,000.00 from DCNR. The playground equipment was around
60 and then we have any of the other items that we can apply for that
too. Councilman Allar asked the contract can go past, Sandy will
get the DCNR. Mr. Malesker said its cleaner, if we get the entire
thing wrapped up, substantial completion date before January 1st.
Councilman Noll said it looks for any kind of accounting work until
end of year, still be billed at the end of the year. Councilman Allar asked
how are you doing? The secretary said I just deposited the check into the
general checking account and I just got a bill. He gave me the first bill for
$27,717. 00, I’ll be sending that check tomorrow. You’ll let me know
when other bills come in. Mr. Malesker said that was just for the equipment
right? No mobilization. The secretary said three equipment systems. You
said this is the past due one, pay this right away. Mr. Malesker said we knew
it was going to take some time to get the check from DCNR, because initially
they had said, they were going to write it all at once, then we had to prove
expenditures of $140,000.00 so we had to send a bunch of paperwork, then
they approved that, then sent the check. In the meantime we talked to George
Ely Construction about it might be, we had to order the equipment to make
sure it was here on time. So we took care making sure that was ordered. They
said we will work with you on that invoice, then they said it past due. The
secretary asked what will be my next bill after this? Mr. Malesker said it
will be the remainder, the installation fees. The secretary said and they
know to get that here ASAP. Mr. Malesker said they should. The secretary
said I’m not worried about them I’m worried about DCNR. Councilman Myers
said I know George Ely, you want me to call him. The secretary said it might
be good to let him know we need to pay everything by December 31st. Mr.
Malesker said if they are going to wrap it up this week, they should be sending
the invoice. I would think you would get the invoice next week. Councilman
Myers said I’ll find out. Councilman Allar asked and everything has been
paid through CDBG? The secretary said I’m getting it to York County Planning,
they are then holding the ball. Mr. Malesker said Joiann had said she’s not going
to process anything after December 18th, it will be January 4th until anything
will be processed. The secretary said the DCED account was closed out today.
The one for the engineering, bill to paid to C. S. Davidson will be paid tomorrow.
All I have to wait for the bank statement for December. Then I can do close out
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 20
report. Councilman Noll said when we set a date for the dedication, we can
send notes around. Councilman Allar said I know we sent a thank you to Mike
Waugh, I least I think we did. Councilman Snyder said back when. Councilman
Allar said he needs to be invited. Mr. Malesker said the last thing I need is
approval for payment of Application Number 3 in the amount of $31079.25.
A motion was made by Councilman Noll to approve for payment Application
Number 3 in the amount of $31079.25. The motion was seconded by Councilman
Allar. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried. Mr. Malesker said
get this to CDBG, I have a copy for you and then get me a copy of the first page.
The secretary said what bill will be used to make the difference for the $70,000.00
for DCNR until the end of the year. If you are telling. Didn’t you say that the
playground equipment is around $60,000.00 and we’re suppose to be getting
$70,000.00 from DCNR. Mr. Malesker said and you have $63,000.00 already.
The secretary said the $3000.00 difference, what bill is going to be used to cover
that? Mr. Malesker said it will come out of something that will come from
Legend. The secretary said and that will be in to me by the end of the year.
Mr. Malesker said he’ll do another application, his final. The secretary said
how will we get that other $7000.00 from DCNR. Mr. Malesker said they
will be sending that, I don’t know how long they will wait, we have to be
done, I would think that would be coming anytime. We proved $140,000.00
expenditure that they had asked for. So if they processed that one October 29th.
Councilman Snyder said I think they already saw that we spent the $70,000.00,
which is why they need to see we spent the $140,000.00, they’re probably
waiting for that walk through, finish walk through and then they’re process
the other $7000.00. Mr. Malesker said and that is scheduled for December
17th so after that will be issued which shouldn’t be a problem, he won’t
issue his application for payment that will probably through the end of
the project but not beyond December 31st. You should have that money by
then even if it’s the first week of January, you should have that money by
then. Councilman Noll said he will have his final application for payment.
The secretary asked will that be for CDBG then? Mr. Malesker said its
going to be the same, the final application. The secretary said I don’t have
to have his bills paid by December 31st, my check doesn’t have to say Dec.
31st. Mr. Malesker said not if they don’t get you that check, the costs have
to be incurred. The secretary said I just want to make sure. Mr. Malesker
said as long as the costs have been incurred, the paid period would be
December 1 through December 27th, then you pay him January 2nd.
The secretary asked you are going to get the next bill from George Ely
because this is made out to C. S. Davidson? Mr. Malesker said right.
They should be sending it to you. The secretary said I’m going to contact
you and you will have the bill for Legend for the difference. Mr. Malesker
said yes. The secretary said I just want it in my head right. Mr. Malesker
said so when you have it in your ledger for the $70,000.00, you’ll just
be substracting. You’ll see items on Legends schedule for values, we’ll
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 21
pick whatever items are DCNR eligible just call it up by item number
that add up. The secretary said I just wanted to make sure, thanks.
Inun- Mr. Malesker said I did want to talk about the inundation map. We
dation did get the dam breech analysis from Holley Associates, it’s a two page
Map thing, it’s a very generalized analysis. I talked to Dennis, then he sent
me the title page with his seal on it. So we’re going to use that as a stand
alone document for the Emergency Action Plan. Then use, the elevation
that they got for the breech, use that to create the inundation map that
they’re asking for, that has topography on it. The one that Holley and
Associates developed, the original one, did not have topography and
that’s what DEP is saying. We need to show the topography. We can
create that inundation map for $375.00 based on the dam breech analysis.
Mayor Sanford said we have to do it. Councilman Snyder said I don’t
see any way around it. A motion was made by Councilman Allar for
C. S. Davidson to prepare the inundation map. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Howett. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion
carried. Mayor Sanford asked when can I expect that? Mr. Malesker said
we can get started on that next week.
Yearly Mr. Malesker said we did the inspection, we’re still working on the report.
Dam. We can send that up at the same time that we send the inspection report.
Inspect The inspection report is due by December 31st. It will be definitely be
Report ready to be sent then. Mayor Sanford said I’ll make sure that all the other
documents are ready and to your office. Mr. Malesker asked do we need
to do the original signatures from the ones that signed that? Mayor Sanford
said they cut down on the signatures. Couple here, Kay Carman from EMA
send it to me to get signatures. Mr. Malesker said I think you have word
document right. Is that something you can do now? Mayor Sanford said
maybe, I’m not sure if Kay will sign off on it, she may,I’ll try. I’ll make
a phone call. Mr. Malesker said once we have that complete I can drop
that off, everything off, with a blank signature page and you can route it
for signatures and get it back to me and then I’ll submit it. Mayor Sanford
said at the most she would be the hold up, I don’t think there is a lot people
that need to sign off. Mr. Malesker said I know Barry signed the last one.
Mayor Sanford said some of them, they cut a lot of them out. Mr. Malesker
said its not my dam breech analysis, its Holley. I have to seal the inundation
map, that’s just record. The dam breech analysis doesn’t account for any
of the bridges or anything. Mayor Sanford said I’ll email you. Councilman
Snyder said but you can still get working on the map. Mr. Malesker said
that’s all I got.
Video Mr. Shearer said the video survey of the sewer lines up at the dam was completed
Survey by York Township. There were no areas of concern noted. They had an area of
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 22
inflow on their one manhole back on the south side on the line coming
down from Dallastown, that they had issues with before that they got
repaired. But as far as the lines look under the dam, under the basin and
along that edge, everything looks good so far. Mr. Malesker asked do
you have a copy of that video? Mr. Shearer said they have not gotten
me a copy of that, yet, but Bob did say that they’re going to give us a copy for our records. Mr. Malesker said okay. Mr. Shearer said they
are going to do another one with the project.
Mr. Shearer said we did get started on 147 S. Main Street. We took the
147 S. fish tape and put that up the drain line so we could put a locator on that.
Main St. And we were able to trace it to, up to the neighboring property on the
Dallastown side of the Johnsons property. We located the line and hand
dug a hole down to locate the pipe in the area of the camera. We put
the camera up, measured it out with the fish tape, we’re in the ballpark
area of where that collapse is in the joint there. I have a mini tract hoe
scheduled for tomorrow. We want to excavate that area, fix that, so
we can camera that and see how just far it goes, where it goes, what
there is into it. It looks like at this time, that our location is correct
beyond that point, this isn’t occurring on the Johnsons property or
at least not coming from their house so. I don’t know what we’ll do
from that point, as far as I’m concerned we pretty much tell PENN
DOT, we feel its not the Johnsons problem, they need to find out
where its coming from. Mr. Malesker said I did talk to Teli today,
he mentioned that, it looks like, there’s a wire it looks like its coming
from that house. Mr. Shearer said we were getting some signals that
made the appearance of another possible wide connection. It was
kind of wet that day, and with the water flowing, if it was a good signal.
We’re pretty sure we were going straight in, it almost looks like its
coming from the side of the neighboring house. There again I don’t
know if its something with a spring and its piped through, you know,
a hundred years ago and that’s the route it took across that property.
Daylight’s down there at the corner of Newton. That’s why we want
to camera it, just too see, what kind of connections are in, and where
the flow is coming from. Mr. Malesker said and if we can’t redirect
the flow. Mr. Shearer said get that fixed and take another video of it,
then we can download that, then we have something to go back to
PENN DOT and say, this is where we think it is, here’s the video of
it. Councilman Snyder said what I also reminded Dana, and we said
we want to be careful on how far we take this, this is in response to
PENN DOT’s assertion to the Johnsons that they’re illegally discharging
onto a street. As I pointed out to Dana, I said just because that pipe
goes to the neighbor’s property, once you’re at that property line,
I said, we should stop. Mr. Malesker said technically. Councilman
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 23
Snyder said because really at that point, I don’t want to be saying,
its coming from the neighbor, because at that point, we don’t
know where its coming from. Just like as in my instance, I mean
I know that the creek that’s running under my house, is running
under my neighbor’s house and running underneath that neighbor’s
house, whose to say that, that pipe doesn’t proceed back to my
house. Exactly. To try to point, I don’t want to sic PENN DOT just
on the neighbor. And that point we say, that we identified that its
not coming from the Johnsons, its coming up stream somewhere
and leave it at that. Let them try to determine where the point of
origin is. Again I think this is all waters of the Commonwealth, and
I think they need to deal with it. Mr. Shearer said and rightfully we
only have a temporary easement from the Johnsons. Mr. Malesker
said right. Councilman Myers said they’re still going to say its coming
off their property, Yoe Borough what are you going to do about it.
Mr. Malesker said Chris Leiphart, when I had asked for the extension,
which they granted, he did called me and followed up, like he said
he was going to which doesn’t usually happen. And then he said
he was going to call me in two weeks again. Councilman Snyder said
it would be interesting how they could come back on the Johnsons
and they say its coming from upstream. Mr. Malesker said if its beyond
their property. Councilman Snyder said and it shouldn’t be our
responsibility to tell PENN DOT to tell them who they should be
going after, I mean at that point, all we need to do, the water is being
generated off their property, like a natural creek would. Go find it.
If they want to find it. It could be coming from up as far as, Seth’s
house. Who knows where its coming from. Councilman Allar said
looking at it as holding us responsible, if it’s a responsibility of
a home owner or a particular group of home owners, then its our
problem. The agency of first relief is PENN DOT. Councilman Snyder
said that’s fine, we said before that we were planning on taking care
of this with our storm water project anyways. They’re the ones that
wanted something done in a month. I mean if they want us to handle it,
yeah we’ll take care of it when we do this other big project. Mr. Malekser
said we tried to get it taken care of, when they paved. Councilman Snyder
said yeah and they didn’t want to hear anything of it. So if they want us
to do it, we’ll do it in our good time. Councilman Allar said I don’t
think its going be any issue as to the time of doing. Mayor Sanford asked
if there is any dialogue on that conversation with them during the project.
Mr. Malesker said when Jason was still here, he was talking to LaConie
Jackson about it. They did the walk down, when they did the walk down,
it wasn’t full it was dry. So it wasn’t an issue. It was dry, it wasn’t
flowing at the time so. Just so happened that. Mr. Shearer said I was
there that day. Councilman Snyder said the interesting part about it was,
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 24
when we tried to get it taken care of it when they were doing the paving
work. PENN DOT admitted they were the ones that made the illegal
connection into the sewer lines. They said that they did that when they
paved back in the eighties. Councilman Allar said that’s what I say,
who was there, and what the date was. Councilman Snyder said Dana
was there. Mr. Shearer said one of the guys that worked for McMinns,
if I remember correctly, he had said that they had put that into that,
but Mark Clark told me at that no time was that ever piped into that
system. Their video did not come up with that. Councilman Snyder
said because it was dry at the time. Mr. Shearer said there again.
Councilman Snyder said when they had that collapse there, that’s how
this whole thing started with the water authority, they found it was
connected into the sewer lateral there and they made them pipe it out.
So that then that created this new pipe, as where it is now. When they
had that whole sewer lateral issue. Mr. Shearer said the sewer lateral
issue is the creek. Councilman Snyder said yeah, but when they dug
that up they found this pipe, this illegal connection and they said you
can’t have that, and they piped it to where it is now. So yes it was into
their sewer lateral. And that’s what. Mr. Shearer said I don’t believe
they said it was piped in, because the pipe the terra cotta pipe ran out,
to basically where its running now. It was, that pipe was over top of
the sewer lateral. Mayor Sanford said that would be different if they
just replaced the pipe rather than re-piping it, redirecting it. Councilman
Allar said its only been a month or so since the conversion, got to
remember the issues. Councilman Snyder said we want to be careful
what we say. Its coming in at their property line at this point. Mr.
Malesker said I agree, the easement agreement was for the Johnsons,
we don’t have any right to access anywhere else. Councilman Snyder
said at that point, let PENN DOT say, we can prove that its coming
off, its entering their property here and exiting property here, its not
being discharged from the Johnsons. Their letter was you’re in violation
of discharging. If we can prove that its entering your property here and
exiting there, there’s not ones discharging, case closed. If they want
to follow it further that’s PENN DOT. Mr. Malesker said just go to the
next property owner. Councilman Snyder said I’m sure they will, I don’t
want to be the one pointing the finger,cause we don’t know where its
coming from. There’s a creek running there. Mr. Malesker said if you
were able to camera it all the way up and found the source, and we could
easily redirect it then that would solve the problem. Councilman Snyder
said we are willing to do that, as part of this project. That is the whole
point we don’t want to piece meal. Councilman Allar said when you do
the survey, you’ll going to get the information. Find out if it is or
isn’t connected. Councilman Snyder asked anything else for the engineer?
Maintenance Report Page 25
Leaf Mr. Shearer reported we finished leaf pick up. I did notice that there are some
Pick piles out and about. I received no calls on them. They appeared after the
up Thanksgiving holiday. Our last scheduled pick up was advertised for the
eighteenth. There was piles out that following weekend. Dallastown did come
down and pick those piles up. So I haven’t had a chance to talk to Teli but
my understanding from last week, he was pretty well done in town up there.
And he’s getting the box off the truck so. If people call and complain about the
piles and its around the ARD time we’ll go out and put them on the truck and
haul them away for them. Other than that, it went pretty well.
Winter Mr. Shearer said working getting stuff ready hope to have the spreader on the
truck by this weekend before we get that big snow. Mayor Sanford can you
make a determination with Dallastown that they can schedule if not I suggest
we contact the property owners that there is a chance that we aren’t going
to get them. If it snows on them, then they shovel them, you are not going
to know where they are. Pretty good one in the 300 block, 200 block. Mr.
Shearer said we picked up twice already. One across the street and another
small piles up on W. High. Mayor Sanford said I think they should know
one way or the other, if they missed the deadline then fine, tell them clean
them up before we have to deal with them when we plow. You know what
its like to hit a pile of leaves. That is just my opinion. Mr. Shearer said
as far that goes, we can make a point to pick them up. Councilman Snyder
said use your good judgment, check with Dallastown see if they are going
to make another pick up, if not, check with ARD, see when you have ARD
scheduled to pick them up and you know the weather reports. If its all coming
in conjunction that its not going to happen before a big snowfall then you give
them notice, sorry you missed it. Mayor Sanford said maybe you can deal with
Red Lion, its only going to take what an hour. Mr. Shearer said I could find
out if they still have it on. Mayor Sanford said they might. Mr. Shearer said
they were trying to pick up this week. Made a determination when he was
going to finish. Mr. Shearer said leaves are one of those things, you never
know. Councilman Snyder said use your judgment.
Snow Councilman Snyder said speaking of snow and snow removal, did we
Remo- get all the information? Mr. Shearer said I’ve got Rick’s stuff, talked to
val him go over everything. I didn’t get a chance to talk to Scott yet. The
Per- secretary said I have Rick’s information. The only thing I need from you
sonnel is to set an hourly wage. Not last month, but the month before, there was
no official motion on what you were going to pay your temporary snow
removal help. At the time, I talked to Sam, you talked about paying the
persons $15.00 an hour but Dana wasn’t making $15.00 an hour. The thing
kind of dropped, Dana now makes $15.00 an hour. That is the only thing
I need, to know how much you’re going to pay them. Councilman Myers
said I think $13.00 to $14.00 an hour is good enough. A motion was made
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 26
by Councilman Noll to see set the range for part time seasonal help
for snow removal at $13.00 an hour. The motion was seconded by
Councilman Allar. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion
carried. The secretary said thank you. Councilman Snyder said
what information do you need from Mr. Henry? The secretary said
I need his W 4 and a copy of his driver’s license. Councilman Snyder
said let the record reflect that he can not get on any borough equipment
until that information is obtained, liability wise we can’t have some.
The secretary said Rick Searle’s copy of his license has been faxed
to Kocman and he’s okay. He is the only one that can touch a piece
of equipment. Councilman Snyder said do we want a drop dead date
for him to submit this to the borough, we have to have that set into
911. The secretary said I already sent it in. Councilman Snyder said
we’d have to make a revision real soon if we don’t get this in. I mean.
You want to give it to the end of the month, I was going to say to
the fifteenth, if he can’t get it to us by the fifteenth then he doesn’t
want it that bad. The secretary said so the next day I work after the
fifteenth I take his name off and send in the revision. Councilman
Snyder said take his name off, we don’t use him. The secretary said
okay. Anything else for maintenance?
Zoning Officer’s Report
Councilman Snyder said there is a report in October in there. Dan suffered
some physical set backs, some health problems. Keep him in your thoughts
and prayers. He is back on the job as of yesterday. He’s going to have
a lot more coming in the future, this is a slow time, he did not have any
report for this month or bill. He said he would get that to us. Councilman
Allar said he’s the acting manager at Red Lion. Councilman Snyder said
he has to get himself healthy, hence the late reports and why we don’t have
them but he is suffering from health problems. So if there is nothing for
zoning.
Emergency Management Report
Mayor Sanford reported a copy of the county’s bill for the radios was given to
myself and Sam. I checked the figures are correct and its going to be paid soon.
Just for a matter of record. Councilman Snyder asked who has the radios. Mayor
Sanford said I have one and Rodney Smith has one. Councilman Snyder said
anything else for EMA? Other that what we had for the solicitor, which had to
do with EAP.
Mayor and Police Report Page 27
Letter Mayor Sanford said a copy of the letter that I sent Ginny Knier is in the
file. Sorry that was a little late. I did have a conversation and followed up
with a letter regarding the conversation. She was okay with that. She did
indicate during our conversation that she was getting some feed back
from some neighbors when her folks parked on Maple Street. I also
referenced in the letter that when happens again let us know and we
can follow up on that. Councilman Snyder said that’s public parking
there. Mr. Shearer said I expressed that too.
Sheriff Mayor Sanford said I noticed in the minutes that there was to be a letter
Dept. sent to the Sheriff’s Department. Was that to be done by me or has that
been completed? Mr. Shearer said yes that needs to be do that. Mayor
Sanford said I can do that, I wasn’t aware of it, I’ll get with you and
get some detail.
Comp Mayor Sanford said Tom, the comprehensive plan results, where can I
Plan see those? Councilman Allar are you talking about the survey, that’s
not put together yet, I’m still getting some of the surveys. I’ll have that
that put together in mid December. Mayor Sanford said it doesn’t
have to be a total number, curiosity. Councilman Allar said taxes,
traffic. Mayor Sanford said a couple of the hot topics, okay. Councilman
Allar said we had a very good meeting up there. Seventy or so people
showed up. About ten from Yoe. Mayor Sanford said is there anything
that really jumped off the page as far as complaints. Councilman Allar
said merging all three municipalities together, I know a few people
from Yoe felt very strongly about that. I did receive about having
three maintenance departments so, and all have the same kind of billing
for no duplication. That was some of the issues. They seemed a lot of
interest in the administration, on duplication of services. There was
good overall interest. There for a good part, representatives had the
mayors and council there. Mayor Sanford said I had a conflict then.
I would have liked to be there.
NIMS Mayor Sanford said I attended NIMS classes in Gettysburg.
Thank Mayor Sanford said on behalf of my wife and I, thank you for your
You cards and your attendance, we appreciate your support.
Mayor Sanford reported I have no police report this evening because I did not
get the report yet. I’ll hold off on that. The secretary said you were not here,
last month, you had the one from month before. Mayor Sanford said I’ll
do them together next month.
Mayor and Police Report(cont.) Page 28
Right Mayor Sanford said I have a question, I saw some information in the file
to on the Right to Know, there is a webinar on Right To Know. I know
Know that is a requirement, and to the best of my knowledge because we
are a municipality we are not exempt from that, is that correct? You
guys still have to train your employees at the county, annually?
Councilman Myers said for? Mayor Sanford said for Right to Know.
Councilman Myers said I’m not following. Mayor Sanford said
the right to know, I thought requires that you have training every
year. Correct me? Councilman Myers said I’m not following you.
Mayor Sanford asked have you been trained on Right to Know?
The secretary said only that we adopted the resolution for
requesting information and there was information about the Right
to Know with that, for the records to fill out and that’s part of
the Right to Know. Mayor Sanford asked can you help me out Seth?
Councilman Noll said on Right to Know. Mayor Sanford said
if I’m correct, I know we train our people annual. Councilman Noll
said we don’t. Mayor Sanford said do you do initial training? The
secretary asked was there training last year for Right to Now
for 2008, 2009? Councilman Myers said its basically for the hazardous
material right? Mayor Sanford said how to deal with chemicals, and
have the material in the MSPS sheet. There is haz mat training with
the fire department. Councilman Myers said we don’t do that. The
secretary asked but that’s just one part of Right To Know, there is
a lot more to Right to Know than that, than just haz mat? Mayor
Sanford said what to do with chemicals. Councilman Noll said
some of the guys have haz mat training for vehicles. Councilman
Myers said yes for that, that is part of your license. Councilman
Noll said is it required that municipal officials have training?
Mr. Shearer said not if you’re, Sandy said Right to Know where
people come to know. What John is saying. Mayor Sanford said
there is a different act. Mr. Shearer said what John is saying,
there is a different act, me as an employee I must be trained
in the hazards, chemicals. Mayor Sanford said chemicals that you
are subject to. Mr. Shearer said the Right To Know, anything that
has hazardous material. Where the MSPS is being located for those.
I understand what you’re talking about now. Councilman Myers said
when a new employee comes in we have show him where the MSPS
is, procedure is, notify your supervisor if anything happens, about
spills there is a policy. Councilman Noll said we have a procedure
book that goes out on the job site, suppose to have MSPS sheet on
site. Mayor Sanford said where I’m going with this, PSBA, are
we a member of that? The secretary said yes. Mayor Sanford said
for thirty dollars you can watch online this presentation. I think
that would be good. Councilman Noll asked how long is it?
Mayor and Police Report(cont.) Page 29
Mayor Sanford said an hour and half. Mr. Shearer said actually doesn’t
the fire department supply me with the same training. Because I know in
Glen Rock, the guys in the sewer authority who were part of the fire
company would go to a hazardous material awareness, that was taught
by basically by the same people that taught us the hazardous materials
operations class and they would go on work time. Councilman Snyder said
technically we only have one employee Sandy. He works for the ambulance
club. We can make it available that if our employee wants to make herself
avail to that for hazamat, we can compensate the $30.00 to do that with the
webinar. Mayor Sanford said one thing, I’m just trying to protect us.
Councilman Snyder said oh yeah, there are so many things. Councilman
Noll said if we were ever OSHA inspected we would need to have
MSPS sheets here. Any information for anything here. Councilman Noll
asked has any gone around and inspected? Councilman Snyder said not
that I know of. Cause I don’t think anyone has gone through and accessed.
They get, I remember this from work, with them MSPS’s everything had
to be labeled, even her little correction tape has to have MSPS label on it.
And you’re suppose to have MSPS label for it. Councilman Noll said
one for your toner, if you want to get technical. Mayor Sanford said
what Barry said about municipalities being exempt from some things is
true, but I don’t think with The Right To Know. Councilman Snyder said
with this being a webinar by PSAB, I would assume it would be for
the boroughs, otherwise the borough’s association wouldn’t be providing
it. So at that point, we make it available as an option for the annual training
for our employee if she wants to avail herself of it. Mr. Shearer said truthfully
we get awareness and operations more intense with the fire department.
Mayor Sanford said I’ll put that back on you so you can research and get
the correct answer. Again I’m just protecting, looking out, if something
happens, if he would lose his life in a chemical related accident, OSHA
would be here regardless and that would be one of those things that
they would be looking for.
Years Mayor Sanford presented certificates of service, to people regarding years
of of service. I have a certificate from the Senate of Pennsylvania and also
Service from the Boroughs Association for Thomas Allar for ten years, Barry
Myers for fifteen years, Sam Snyder for fifteen years of service. Sandy
Sterner’s years of service needs to be corrected. Mayor Sanford said
I’ll look at my email. I started following up on the stuff that was sent
out. Mayor Sanford said I got one this year.
Tennis Councilman Snyder said I don’t know how it ended up in my box. Mayor
Sanford said I put it there. From Tennis for Kids Inc. of York, Pennsylvania,
they just wanted to let everyone to know what they do for the community.
They supply tennis instruction for, and how many kids in the area they
Mayor and Police Report(cont.) Page 30
provide this for and were looking for us to hopefully keep them in
our thoughts and prayers for a donation. We can’t give anything.
We did with Dallastown one time, with the school district.
Mayor Sanford said we just give them the courts that is our
only involvement as far as the school district. Councilman
Snyder said they’re looking for money. Mayor Sanford said
you can make that suggestion via a letter. Councilman Snyder
said our budget is already set. Mayor Sanford said at least
we can do that in a letter. Councilman Snyder said it’s a consensus
of council, maybe the Mayor it was directed to you.
Secretary’s Report
Meet- The secretary said we need to adopt the meeting dates for 2010.
ing Councilman Noll asked is the first Tuesday correct in November
Dates correct? The secretary said I thought I sent you a revision changing
the date from the second of November to the ninth. Councilman
Snyder said I didn’t see the revision. The secretary said yes its
been changed from the second to the ninth and Wendy Coble
Tyson will get a copy of the dates. A motion was made by
Councilman Howett to set those meeting dates for 2010. The
motion was seconded by Councilman Allar. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said motion carried.
Office The secretary said the office will be open from 9AM until 11AM on
Close December 21 and will be closed December 23, 2009 reopening on
December 28th.
Councilman Snyder said that’s all I had for the secretary.
Unfinished Business
Comp Councilman Allar said a couple of months ago I had asked for $500.00
Plan to take care of mailing and printing for the comp plan questionnaire.
Thanks to Dana and ARD, we didn’t have any mailing. I worked
out a printing deal with York County Printing office. It was a little over
$50.00. Savings of $450.00. Sandy, I know this number is wrong, since
we’re invoicing us that number, let it go as that. The secretary said
alright. Councilman Allar asked Councilman Myers why he didn’t
mention a printing office? Councilman Myers said I didn’t know we
had a county printing office, the last time I knew it was gone. In
County government? Who does that go to? Councilman Allar said
York County Planning. Councilman Myers said I know the county
office had their own printing department but they got rid of it. Unless
Unfinished Business(cont.) Page 31
York County Planning took it over. Councilman Allar said once I get
a deal I don’t ask questions.
? Councilman Noll said one thing from the last meeting that remained unresolved.
Maint- On maintenance and dredging, with York Township, I had the opportunity to
enance sit down and talk to Scott and Bob. One of the big reasons that things got so
Dredge so confused that they had not seen a final plan with specs or anything like that.
So they weren’t going to obligate, I am not complying that they are obligating
to do the maintenance but what we’ve done we gave them a copy of the specs
for the project, the spec book and the actual plans. They have that, that
is why Bob will be invited to meetings. They will work with us, once they
see final plans and see everything, they may decide to send it back. I just
want to relay everyone’s fears, its not that York Township is running away
from it, its just didn’t understand what we were doing. Councilman Snyder
said so they’re back on the page then. Councilman Noll said they have all
the information to make an educated determination. They were extremely
helpful and were pro to what we were doing, very good dialogue. Councilman
Allar said when we walk it together. Councilman Noll said they are
still very interested in what we are doing, the reason for the kick back was
because they didn’t know what we were doing, dredging alone or what.
Councilman Allar said they did have plans. Councilman Noll said they are
all on board with the project. Councilman Snyder said very good. Anything
else for unfinished?
New Business
Councilman Snyder said very good.
Payment of the Bills
Councilman Snyder asked did everyone have an opportunity to look over the bills? We do have a couple additions: Griffith, Strickler: $2965.50, Dallastown Yoe
Water Authority: $52.82, $1109.43, $22.47,$47.97; and one from Milt’s Repair
for $124.98. Mayor Sanford asked is that connected to the annual inspection.
The secretary said I know the lights went out on the flashing light I know that
is part of it. Lamps for special sign application, the red is out on the signal ahead
and for bucket truck. No, it wasn’t for the annual inspection. So with the addition
of the bills mentioned do I have a motion to pay the bills. A motion was made
by Councilman Noll. Councilman Allar said before we do that, this is Bruce’s last
meeting, want to thank him for a couple of years of good service. Councilman
Manns said if things don’t work out let me know. The motion was seconded by
Councilman Myers. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried.
Adjournment Page 32
A motion was made by Councilman Howett to adjourn the meeting at 9:31PM.
The motion was seconded by Councilman Snyder. All in favor.
Wednesday, December 2, 2009
Yoe Borough Minutes Tuesday November 10, 2009
YOE BOROUGH PAGE 1
150 NORTH MAPLE STREET
YOE, PA 17313
The regular monthly meeting of Yoe Borough Council was held on November 10, 2009 at the Yoe Borough Municipal Building, 150 North Maple Street, Yoe, PA. The meeting
was called to order by Council President Sam Snyder at 7PM followed by the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Council Members in attendance:
Sam Snyder
Tom Allar
George Howett
Bruce Manns
David Naylor
Seth Noll(arriving at 7:15PM)
Others in attendance:
Sandy Sterner, Secretary-Treasurer
Dana Shearer, Maintenance
Steve Malesker, Engineer
Opening Remarks
Councilman Snyder said just for notation, our solicitor is out sick tonight. He and I had discussed some things that we can go over in solicitor’s report. The mayor gave me some
things to go over under the mayor’s report. He’s actually had a conflict and he’s up in
Gettysburg tonight. And actually probably won’t be here next month as well because
of flying back from seeing his daughter from Texas. If he does make it next month,he’ll
be late. I just heard from Tom that Seth will be here about 7:30PM. And I haven’t heard
any update from Barry, if he plans on coming or he had a conflict. Mr. Shearer said
did he say anything to you George. Councilman Howett said he didn’t say anything today
about it. Mr. Shearer said they have work detail for clean up after that fire so. Councilman Snyder said still maybe on fire detail. Councilman Naylor said I won’t be
here next month.
Minutes
Councilman Snyder asked did everyone have an opportunity to look over the minutes
from the prior meeting, any additions or corrections? Naturally I’ll abstain since I can’t
pull one way or the other. If no additions or corrections do I have a motion to accept.
A motion to accept the meeting minutes from October 6, 2009 was made by Councilman
Howett. The motion was seconded by Councilman Manns. In favor: Councilman Naylor,
Minutes(cont.) Page 2
Councilman Allar. Abstaining: Councilman Snyder. Councilman Snyder said minutes
are accepted.
Solicitor’s Report
Ordinance Councilman Snyder said the first thing, the ordinance is slated for 7:30
2009-04 tonight. If we have to we’ll come back, I’ll interrupt you from
engineering and come back to that. But there are some things we can
go over.
Knier Councilman Snyder said he did prepare the hold harmless agreement for
Hold Ginny Knier. However I did not sign it on behalf of the borough after
Harmless with speaking with Pete. And he did, of course everybody got a copy
Agreement of his note. He actually wasn’t in favor of it. I read over the minutes and
Draft the minutes were a little went back and forth and basically there were
two comments that said check with Pete and Pete doesn’t like it but
he still drafted in case council wants to go through with it. In his letter,
he eluded to problems that you’re eluding to a Pandora’s box. That you
really can’t withhold anybody who wants to park on the borough
property. Also I mention to him, what about if you’re worried about
a potential Pandora’s box, I said what about one that has already
been created. And I know Seth wasn’t on council at that time, I’m
not sure about Bruce, I think you were though. I know Dave of course
wasn’t. Approximately three maybe four years ago, we use to have
what was called the Block Party, the infamous Yoe Fest. Councilman
Manns said they use to use the whole field up there. Councilman
Snyder said yeah. And there they just parked on the borough property,
without our permission. The following year we told them that’s a no-no.
And he came to council, the very next year within a week of the party
and council was hesitate at that time because it was within a week and
they had already spent thousands of dollars to promote this thing. We
said yeah you can but we put on the stipulation you’ve got to clean up,
no drinking. Councilman Manns said you also did the noise ordinance
right after that. Councilman Snyder said we did the noise ordinance
right after that and we also said next year you better give us plenty
of notice. Councilman Manns said he never did it after that. Councilman
Snyder said that’s when he stopped and literally we’re opening that
Pandora’s box up by saying we’re not letting him to but we’re going
to allow them to. He could come back and sue and say why were you
giving me such a guff when you just turned over and allowed it to her.
So. I personally think, especially when I read that she does have parking
over at Shaffers, I think the only issue was crossing the street. Cross
up here at the hill top because we had one person killed because the
bad knob and all she would have had to do is cross at the top of the hill.
Solicitor’s Report Page 3
For site distance. So tell your people to cross up here at the top of the
hill for site distance problem. I personally and after looking at Pete’s
memo, I would not recommend council following through with this
and allowing permission. Like Pete said, the next time, he didn’t want
to say though, what type of group, it started with three letters you know
what I mean. There’s no way to stop anyone, you’re already setting
precedence. All you need to do list who it is, the license plate and the
other criteria, you can’t park here in inclimate weather and you’ve
already set the criteria that you can park so. Councilman Naylor said
I think there’s a potential liability there I mean any number. Councilman
Manns said people will test it. Councilman Snyder said the problem is,
the other big problem is, why we put the signage, Seth wasn’t on then,
I think he was just about getting on. When we had the big hoopla with
the Rexroth hearing, and there was a gentleman, I don’t even know where
that panel truck came from, but he was parked like this, in the parking
lot. And we had fifty some people here and he had taken up five or
so parking spots and the police said we can’t tow them. So. I think
someone sees that you gave someone permission, they’re not going to
know that you’ve got to get permission and the next thing you know
everyone is wanting to get permission and how can you keep them off.
Its better not to open up that door, I think. So ah. Because there was
a motion made for Pete to draw up the hold harmless clause, do we
have a motion then not to follow through with allowing private parking
except for borough business on borough property, for the borough
building I should say not borough property, that would include parking.
Councilman Allar said I’ll make the motion. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Naylor. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion
carried. The secretary asked if Councilman Snyder was going to create
a letter so it could be typed and sent. Councilman Snyder said I’ll
talk to John, he wanted to do it since he got the initial contact or if
he wants us to do it. The secretary said let me know please.
Resolution Councilman Snyder said next item, Resolution 2009-14, formality
2009-14 its to appoint the auditors for 2010, even though we have a contract
with Stambaugh Ness. By law you still have to appoint an auditor
on an annual basis. So do we have a motion to resolve that the
borough council does hereby appoint Stambaugh Ness PC as independent
auditor for the borough for 2010 to perform audit of financial books
and records for the fiscal year ending December 31, 2009. Councilman
Allar said do you feel that its time to bid out? Councilman Snyder said
we do, which we just did last year was the first year for them, so we
have a three year contract. And every three year. Councilman Allar
said did the amount charge changed. The secretary said the amount
goes up every year. Councilman Allar said asked is there an advantage?
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 4.
Councilman Snyder said I think we saved a thousand dollars. The
secretary said we only had two firms and we don’t bid again until
the summer of 2011 again. Councilman Allar made a motion to
resolved Resolution 2009-14. The motion was seconded by Councilman
Howett. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said so be it resolved.
Proposed Councilman Snyder said we still have some time here, the next item
Budget I had is to adopted the tentative or proposed budget for 2010. We’re
do that under solicitor’s report so he knows we did it. Any questions
or comments on that? I did have conversations with Pete after we did
have our meeting. On some of the stuff that was discussed at the
workshop, in so much as the rec fee. He did not thing we could do it
because that is actually charged through a subdivision and land
development. He said since we don’t have our own subdivision land
development ordinance, we use York County. He said he doesn’t think
we can do it, check with York County Planning. I checked and followed
up with, that Terry Ruby. Mr. Malesker said Teresa Ruby, yes.
Councilman Snyder said and she said she would check in on it and try
to get an answer. In order for us to even do it, we need to have a park
recreation plan in place. She knows we’re going through the tri municipal
comp plan and she said since that’s not in place at the very least you
could not until that’s adopted. Now she said she will go back our tri
borough plan from 63, 64 to see if there’s a rec plan in there that we could
somehow use. But she said its, you need more, you have to meet certain
state guidelines, other than just having a rec plan you actually have to
say what you’re planning on doing. And trying to work towards it. If
you didn’t set any goals in that one she said, she doubts you’re going to
need it but she’ll get back to us. So that is on hold right now. When I
talked to her about the review costs for something like that. She said
we already have that in place and she reminded me of the resolution
that we do on the annual basis at the beginning of the year, she that,
when you adopt those engineering fees. That’s one thing that I was
going to charge you with in December, give us an updated fee schedule
for January because every January/February at the latest, we always
pass a resolution which adopts engineering fees. Believe it or not, I
had to, I haven’t rewritten that thing, I go back to the temp plate and I
just update the figures I haven’t re read the whole resolution since
we first past it, four years ago. She said that is for exactly that, to
be able to charge back engineering fees on subdivision and land
development. Any time it comes through. The reason it wasn’t charged
back on the former Rexroth case, was because that wasn’t a subdivision
and land development question that was land use issue. You were
appealing a land use. He was proposing a land development plan and
saying he was only going to be fifty five and over and so many condos.
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 5
But in reality, what he was only getting was a change of use. So once
he got the change of use, he could came in with anything as long as
it was under that zone, he could have applied for it. So she said, any
review of that is not charged back under the resolution that we have.
So we can actually recoup those costs. When I checked with Pete,
on the street light and to see if we can abate them, reduce them. Can
we recoup costs on them? I don’t know, like fire hydrant rental there’s
extra fees and cost. He said he would have to research that and get
back to us. I think that’s all that I had for him on that.
Submitting As far as the outstanding issues, he’s asked for an extension for submitting
Brief a brief on the Bowser hearing because of his health. Which the court
Extension granted.
Chronister Councilman Snyder said on the Chronister matter, he is not the happy
Matter camper. He said he can not get a straight answer from the board of
arbitrators. Evidently, all arbitration has to held within Old Courtroom
One of the Old Courthouse. Any arbitration, that’s where it is. And
you have to reserve that room months in advance, that’s the only place
you can hold it. So he had six dates that he gave them in the end of
November, beginning of December and he already had the room
reserved. And the Arbitration Board came back and said, we can’t
meet that date. And then he said, then you give me dates that we
can meet , so he can try to reserve this courtroom. And he said as
of today, they have yet to give him anything in writing as far as when
they’re able to meet. So that’s what we’re waiting on.
Ordinance Councilman Snyder said other than that we had the ordinance that, he
2009-04 did say we would not be charged for that mess up where his secretary,
Sandy did not pick up that we moved our meeting back to the second
week and sent to advertise for last week. And that’s all the updates
I had for solicitor.
Proposed Councilman Snyder said back to the proposed budget, I think that’s
Budget the issues that I had to go over with him. Are there any other? Councilman
Allar said the only thing, Cottrell I don’t know if there is anything there.
Councilman Snyder said I talked to him about that, that’s was right after
I got back from New York. And he said, he did have a conversation
with the attorney. The attorney was interested in what Pete had to tell
him. And he was going to follow that up with written correspondence,
a proof of basically what Pete was telling him because this is what
Cottrell we got. To be totally honest I haven’t heard anything back from Pete
as far as if he heard anything back. But he did make contact with him,
and that attorney was interested in hearing all that. So that just may
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 6
go away. Or what he’ll do, like we found out with the other issue.
He’ll find another attorney and just say, just file the case and.
Cause the last time we went through that, he went three attorneys,
as things were changing. One thing, since we’re still discussing
the budget here, I know you had mentioned, Seth, about other
alternatives for revenue. And I already updated council with the
issue of the park, recreation fee. But I was actually trying to find
a copy of it, on York Township’s site and that is not a very user
friendly site. Councilman Noll said I was just going to ask. The
secretary said there is an email here from Deb Hatley, in the packet
right in front of you there is an email. Councilman Snyder said
which after the update I gave council, basically we’re waiting for
further direction from York County Planning because in order to
do it you have to have a park plan in place. She’s checking, Teresa
Ruby from York County Planning, to see if we meet that criteria
because it falls under land development and subdivision. Councilman
Noll said if we have a park plan. Councilman Snyder said like I told
her I know one is coming up with our tri borough comp plan but.
Councilman Noll said did they have a list of requirements of what
the park plan had in it. Councilman Snyder said yeah there is, she
didn’t give me that. She said what she is actually going to do now
is go back and see if our prior comp plan that was passed in 63, 64
would meet the criteria. And she’ll get back to me. Councilman
Noll said I’d be happy to put that together. Councilman Snyder said
I did talk to council, when I was having this conversation with her,
she said to the best of her knowledge nothing has come through
from him even on the York Township side except for a small
subdivision down on Fruitlyn and Springwood, down that way.
Seven unit. Councilman Allar said that’s already done with York
Township. Councilman Snyder said she said nothing else, she
doesn’t even know what he may be contemplating for up there.
Anyway, I digress, as I was looking over that. One thing I don’t
if you want to pursue it further. I did talk to Pete about the street
light issue. I saw where they have, a business tax. It’s a business
gross receipts tax. And they charge one mill on gross receipts,
not profit, gross receipts of any corporation. For profit corporation,
York Township does. The secretary said I think York Township
has a street light tax too. Councilman Snyder said that would have
to go of course on property tax. But this business tax that I saw,
if you want me, I didn’t ask Pete to pursue it because I didn’t, I wanted
to bring it up to council, but I happened to see it. They’re charging
a one mill. Just off the top of my head, as long as you make it as part
of your criteria, the definition of what constitutes a business. Why
couldn’t you include these corporations/businesses of all these
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 7
rental properties that, you’re incorporated, you’re in business, you’re
making a profit, suppose to making a profit so go on gross receipts.
I don’t know how complicated it is, theirs is being run by the tax
collector. Which if anyone saw, any of the results, Connie can be back,
I can’t say that, it has to be done by the election board, when they
certify the results, we’ll have her back in. If you want to pursue that
option, because I know when you make it across the board, like
that, you’ll be touching upon our local businesses. You know, Yoe,
Strobecks, Auto Parts, Shaffers, any of the smaller businesses. If they
are incorporated, or for profit, we’ll be hitting on. Councilman Manns
said just remember, they’re not going to be happy about it. Councilman
Snyder said yeah, that’s why I want to bring it to council’s attention
before we say anything to Pete. I just happened to see, maybe we
can’t even adopt it. Maybe that’s something, that’s only out there
for townships. Councilman Noll said one thing, I don’t know how
far you got with the budget, after we did our budget workshop, I walked
away thinking we’re probably going to have a huge problem next
year, we shaved the budget very close. There’s forty dollars there from
before, that I think we’re going to actually spend this time. And instead
of having that money to start out the following year, we’re going to
have a huge deficient. I was even wondering, I know noone wants
to raise taxes. At least talk about a ¼ mill since we no longer have
the occupancy taxes, we can get the same money by raising it slightly.
And not have to send out. We were sent out in the sending, all the
things that went into those other taxes. We really wouldn’t lose anything
in doing that. Unless we don’t have, I think its something we should
look into, because I’m fearful. I don’t know if there is any more blood
in the stone, we’ve squeezed it out. Councilman Allar said I don’t
think I’ve seen a budget here in ten years, that hasn’t been tight. It
was like this last year, the year before. Councilman Noll said the
only thing I fear is we’re banking on saving 10% on our budget, and
I don’t think we’re going to do it this time. We’ve cut so many of
those numbers back so far unless there is a Christmas miracle.
Councilman Snyder said that’s what we had faced year after year,
just like Tom said, we held off for twenty years. Didn’t have a tax
increase. Until two years ago, three years ago, we had to raise it
up. Then we had to take a bite. It was like a one mill increase.
Councilman Allar said it was like two in two years. Councilman
Snyder said we may have had back to back, I think one was a ½
mill and the other was a mill. We had two back to back. Councilman
Noll said I just don’t want to see us in that position. I know all
the arguments on what taxes do and everything else, I completely
understand that but unless there is a bag of money I don’t know about,
its just, we have to do it this year or really get. Councilman Snyder
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 8
said one of these years its going to happen again. And we had
that debate at this council table ever since I’ve been on it. Its
do you want to do a ¼ mill now, 1/10 of a mill now, and try
to keep that going. Or do you want to cut bare bones, wait
till next year see what you have to do, cut bare bones. Cause
we made it through again, we squeaked again, then one time
its going to catch up to you, then you’re going to have to hit
them with a one mill increase. Now personally, I personally
agree with you, I’d like to see 1/10 of a mill, or a ¼ of mill
increase. I think its prudent. At the same point I think looking
at this budget knowing where our beginning balance is, and
knowing for a fact how much of this is going to go away
next year. I mean we’re going to save $20,000.00 off the
bat just by getting rid of the dam maintenance. Okay we
can afford to have $20,000.00 less in beginning balance
and still have the exact same budget. We have $2000.00
in the comp plan, that’s going to go away. We have $3000.00
in codification that’s going to be paid for next year so
right there, there’s $25,000.00, that this year is done and
over with. We can afford to be $25,000.00 less next year and
still have the same budget. Councilman Noll said yes and no,
cause we’ve carried that same $20,000.00 for a number of years
and we still have $60,000.00. You’re going to spend that,
so you add that to expense. Councilman Snyder said another
thing as to why, I see where you’re coming from, I just want
council to know everything on the budget. We also inflated,
I said inflate, we’re gauging ahead, but the electric numbers
are inflated. What I found out after making a phone call to
Ron Miller’s office, PPL takes affect in January, Met Ed
doesn’t take affect until the following January in 2011.
So, we’re not going to see those numbers next year. Not
saying they’re not coming in 2011. Councilman Naylor said
I thought I heard that too, that we’re not going to see anything
until 2011. Councilman Snyder said it depends on who you have,
PENN Elect and Met Ed won’t go into affect until 2011. He
told me he’s hoping to have this reopened next year, once
PPL puts theirs in, he’s hoping that enough people start
complaining, that they’ll actually have to deal with it so that
we can stave something off in 2011. He said he also knows that
its been in the works between the PUC, that Met Ed since
they were looking at a 60 to 70% increase, of passing a law
because they don’t want to back off of what they promised
them in 96, only allowing them to graduated in, 20% each
year. So that we’ll not see those numbers that we budgeted for
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 89
at least a couple years so. So we do have some wiggle room,
I think there is wiggle room for next budget but I absolutely
see its coming. Councilman Noll said I think the nice thing
that we can do, this time, is to say very honestly, that we
got rid of the nuisance taxes, we’re shifting it over to normal,
that way its easier, however you want to put. I think we have
an opportunity to do it that way. Councilman Snyder said
we got rid of the nuisance taxes. That is one thing I wanted to
bring up also, we still have, which I don’t know if Pete
he ever gave his opinion on it. This ordinance with Dallastown,
the storm water fee ordinance. That is still a possibility.
Councilman Noll said but that is a directed fund that goes.
Councilman Allar said that goes to storm water. Councilman
Snyder said but if we can put that $10,000.00 towards dam
maintenance or whatever, and pull that out of general fund,
it frees up. Councilman Naylor said or engineering costs
related to that something. Councilman Snyder said its freed
up ten thousand dollars so, yeah it’s a directed, but we have
money directed into that type of work anyways that we can
pull out and put elsewhere so that is still a possibility that
we never explored. Councilman Naylor said something else
to think about, not to related to stormwater, I don’t know
when the salt agreement with York Township is over.
The secretary said 2012. Councilman Naylor said I wouldn’t count on having another salt agreement like that. I think at
point I think we’re going to have to buy our own salt.
Councilman Snyder said yeah. The secretary said well hopefully
by then you’re have your tri comp plan in then go to Red Lion
and Dallastown. Councilman Allar said or Windsor Township.
Councilman Snyder said Windsor Township,that gal from
Windsor Township, I’ve known her for twenty five years. She
is just so nice and easy to work for. She’s had the same complaints,
how difficult at times the township can be to work with. Councilman
Allar said I have a meeting with her next week, you want me
to bring it up, its up to you. Councilman Naylor said its out there
a little bit, but its something you ought to consider. Councilman
Snyder said well its not out there far enough, when you think about
that we’re in 2010 next, and next year is when they have to actually
put in they’re bid for costars or PENN DOT and saying this is
what we expect to use, that needs to be in place next year for the
2010/2011 winter. I think our. The secretary said we don’t
have to have it until the fall of 2012. Next year and the next year
is good. Councilman Allar said you are talking about the material.
Councilman Naylor said I don’t know what the agreement was
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 10
with York Township, I don’t know. Councilman Snyder
said anything really. Councilman Naylor said if council
gave it to haul it. The secretary said it was part of the
building, we put the building up there and they used the
salt building. Councilman Snyder said we could probably
get the same deal with the state. The idea is if we have
something to offer them, like storage or something for
this side of Windsor Township, that they can dump
material in and use it. We’ll even help you load it up,
while Dana’s here and you just you’re material here
and let us use some of it. Councilman Allar said there
are storage areas where the township building is.
Councilman Naylor said I believe so. Councilman Allar
said that’s not too far away, that’s on this side. Councilman
Snyder said I guess they did move that. The secretary said
its there around Freysville isn’t it. Councilman Allar said
there has to be benefits by joining with them. Councilman
Snyder said it doesn’t hurt to, look into it. Mr. Shearer
said didn’t they use to be part of the. Councilman Manns
said yes, the YCOG. Mr. Shearer said I know that most
of them COG material, Shrewsbury Township. Councilman
Manns said Earl couldn’t get enough people involved. He
did attempt to do that. Mr. Shearer said I know Glen Rock
was getting it through their contract. Councilman Snyder said
so as far as the budget, feel comfortable. Councilman Allar
said the only thing, the county is going to start charging for
doing traffic studies. You if you want to put a $250.00 in
there for traffic studies. Its not going to change the bottom
line, just have a line item. Councilman Noll said what would
a ¼ mill look like to a $100,000.00 house. Councilman
Snyder said $25.00. You are preaching to the choir. I know
when you start talking taxes, it’s a big taboo, no one likes
to raise taxes. I don’t like paying my taxes, nobody does. At
the same point when you look at what the borough provides
for what we charge, we’re only at less that three mills. I
think. The secretary said 2.955 mills. Councilman Snyder said
so you’re talking at a $100,000.00 home, $295.00. You pay
$240.00 just to pick up your garbage,$295.00 bucks I think
you’re still getting a bargain. You can compare apples to
oranges and say Windsor Township doesn’t have any, well
yeah they have the land fill too, generating money for them.
We were high when that one list came out, because we just
happened to raise up our taxes then. We were at the bottom
of the list, the last twenty years before we had to raise our
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 11
taxes up. Now I’m starting to see others raising there taxes up,
I think I saw West Manchester in the paper this morning. They’re
putting theirs up. Its like, everybody eventually has to do it, I think
we’re in line, I think for what we give, I think our taxes are
reasonable. Yeah, people don’t like to hear a tax increase, whether
its $10.00 or $25.00. It also didn’t help, that those two reassessed
and we expect to get less in. Even if we got in the same amount.
Councilman Allar said we can always do it in mid year, on an
emergency bases. Councilman Snyder said yeah if something. I think
maybe, because there is some wiggle room, just off the top of my head
I gave you $25,000.00, I see where you are coming from. I tell this
to everybody, I think we’re probably okay for this year, but next
year I think we seriously need to consider it. I really do. Councilman
Noll said that’s why I was saying, I think we ought to look at a
¼ mill this year to soften the blow for one and also we got rid
of those nuisance, it would be the same amount or a little more than
that would be. Councilman Noll said on a $100,000.00 home. The
only problem there is, well we weren’t actually collecting what we
were budgeting for, because of deliquents and everything else, we
ran those numbers, yeah we were capturing tenants, only when
we knew who they were and where they were and that’s going to
be on property. I do have to open up a public hearing at this point.
Anyone else want to consider reopening the budget? Councilman
Allar said I’m opposed to it. Councilman Snyder asked Dave?
Councilman Naylor said leave it the way it is. Councilman Manns
said I’m opposed to it. Councilman Allar said by not doing it, one
of the reasons I’m opposed to it, its just too easy, it gives us an
excuse not to do the hard work. Sit down and work out a long term
plan. If we had a plan, and this was a short term piece of that of
that five year plan, that would make sense. We don’t have a long
term plan, we haven’t even started talking about a long term plan.
I know I know if we do it now, we are going to be sitting here a year
from now having the same conversation, another tax increase. As
long we are not doing the planning that we’re suppose to be doing.
Its just too easy. Councilman Snyder said and that’s where, again
its that idea, quarter mill this year, quarter mill next year, quarter
mill the following. What people hear, is that you raise taxes three
years ago, what we’re trying to do is stave off that one year where
you have to double taxes in one year, like we had to do. Councilman
Manns said we aren’t even talking about what the school taxes are
here. Councilman Allar said but those increases are not in
good case for expenses, so unless you create new revenue, you
can talk in case of one mill, maybe not even that, ¾ of a mill,
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 12
its not going to be a solution. Councilman Snyder said and that’s
why I said about that business, I happened to see a business, I don’t know if a borough can charge that, I know a township can, but
we fall under borough code, township can fall under city code. But
we can look into it. But that also means hitting the Ma and Pa shops
cause just say its against the rentals, I just happen to see that half
of our people are rentals, we talk about how the rentals hurt our town.
If you’re going to be a bedroom community, it would best to go
back to single family homes, its like, lets hit some of these rental
properties up for the money that they’re supposedly making. Councilman
Allar said I know of one, I’m not going to mention names, they are
considering leaving. Councilman Snyder said as long as its not the
fire company. The motion dies then because, have to remember my
borough code. In absence of the Mayor, President of Council acts as
Mayor, because in event of a tie, because there is six of us there.
I never asked George yet where he is leaning. So at this point, if I
have to act as mayor, that makes three to the maximum of two.
Because I would have to be. If George says he’s going to vote with
Seth, I would lean towards voting with Seth, I would rather see
a small increase rather seeing a large one three years from now,
four years from now. That makes it a tie vote. At that point it goes
to the mayor to break the tie especially when it comes to budget.
The mayor is not here, so I have to act as mayor which means,
there is only five. So the most it could be is three to two, if I’m
reading my borough code right. I’m pretty sure I’ve got that
right. Now, I’m pretty sure I’ve got that right, at the very least
we’ve one new council, two new council people. He’s going
to be reelected, we have one new council person on that doesn’t
constitute reopening. I think yeah it would be reopened mid way.
Councilman Noll said and if we do decided to reopen mid year,
how does that work? Because taxes are already out, it doesn’t
matter. You might as well wait until the following tax year. Councilman
Snyder said its just a matter of mid year, we would have to start
discussing then, so we don’t have this discussion now at the end
of the year. So that everybody is on key. And that’s why I said
before, you know, never been to brow beat everybody, but when I
say we really got to control spending. Our best way to stave off
taxes right now is to curtail that spending because as you see,
theoretically we spend every dollar we shouldn’t have a beginning
balance, and we’re $90,000.00 in the whole. That’s what DCED,
said we’re in a constructive deficit. The only reason we have this
to work with is, last year, we did not spend $76,000.00 of what
we said we were going to. Now we know twenty of it was with the
dam. So as we said, we know we’re going to spend that this
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 13
year. But also I know that its going to fall away next year, so that’s
a wash. You know technically, unless something else pops up. So.
Again. The motion dies for lack of a majority from consensus wise.
We didn’t have to take a vote, I was getting consensus. So then
back to the budget, any other questions or concerns. It was a valid
point. Councilman Noll said I just, if it will be all at one time.
Councilman Allar said do we need a line item for the 250. The
secretary said you don’t have to this year because you have $973.00
in appropriated balance. I take it out of miscellaneous and next
year we can put it in. Councilman Snyder said and one thing I saw,
I saw that email too, I saw an email back. I saw a communication
from Seth, or from Dana, that said, with Dana with his LTAP
background and being certified in that, we will be able to handle
a majority of those request, there is going to be some of them
that he can’t, those we’d have to look at. But the majority of them,
like for a handicapped parking placard, he’ll be able to handle that.
It may not be an issue really. Any more questions or comments
about the budget? A motion to propose and advertise the 2010
budget was made by Councilman Allar. The motion was seconded
Councilman Naylor. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said
budget is. The secretary asked are you going to get the tax
ordinance ready. Councilman Snyder said yeah. Councilman
Noll said we need to find some ways to generate some revenue.
Councilman Snyder said since I did bring that up, where do
we want to go from here about that business, do we have
a consensus to look into further, find out. Well if someone
like Dennison is bringing in, my God what’s rent, $6000.00
a year off of one unit and he has say 100 units, that is
$600,000.00 and if you have one mill. That would be
$60,000.00. Councilman Manns said if you have some savings
from the tri borough initiative that we are looking at. Councilman
Snyder said at this point we’re looking at other alternatives, I know
one of the other things they have is a mercantile tax, we don’t
have that type of business in town. They have a room and board
tax for hotels, we don’t have that type of a tax. We don’t have
any liquor license in town that we can tax. Councilman Manns
asked is Yoe really dry, is there anything to generate, we don’t
have anything. Councilman Snyder said lets just say we need to
update some zoning. Councilman Allar said I thought all
municipalities in Pennsylvania were given one license. It
would be good for financial planning, a valuable asset. Councilman
Manns said along the rail trail, liquor and cigarettes. Councilman
Snyder said interesting discussion. Councilman Naylor said I think
its worth looking into. Councilman Snyder said we’re running a tad
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 14
late.
Recessing the Regular Meeting at 7:59PM
A motion made by Councilman Noll to recess the regular meeting at 7:59PM and
to open up the public hearing. The motion was seconded by Councilman Howett.
All in favor. Councilman Snyder said so be it.
Public Hearing for Ordinance 2009-04
Councilman Snyder said I’d like to open the public hearing for ordinance 2009-04.
Yoe Borough, York County adopting the Uniform Code, I don’t know why
he titled it that way, adopting the Uniform Construction Code and Municipal
Building code of the Borough of Yoe. We’ve already done that in 2005. Actually
its not the best title for that, because that specifically adopts Section 403.28
in its entirety pertaining to uncertified buildings within the departments jurisdiction
and utilizing the standards of issuance of Certificate of Occupancy for uncertified
buildings. Is there any comments? It’s a formality thing. Because we have so many
grandfathered homes, when you apply for a building permit they have to reissue
an occupancy permit. Technically you could not issue an occupancy, because say
you’re electrical system is not up to snuff, so this way if all you’re getting is a
permit for say a deck, not tying then into electrical he can issue the occupancy
permit on the uncertified building without you having you update your whole
building too. Councilman Noll said because it has a lot of implications more
so on the commercial side than the residential, when you go in you have to
classify yourself and if you are a change of occupancy in the code, that you
don’t have to 100 % for the new building code, it would just be that occupancy,
if you use the existing building code, there are a lot of mechanism in there
on how far up you have to bring your building to code based on the rate of
occupancy. Storage use is not as hazardous as say an auditorium, assembly
and its packed with people, exit doors, bathroom all those types of things so,
this gives the mechanism of the uncertified building, when it was built, as
to inspections and all sorts of things. Councilman Snyder said comments,
questions. Let the record reflect there is no public here for public comment.
Do you want me to sign both of them. The secretary said sign both of them.
The mayor is not here to sign them at the meeting. Councilman Snyder said
he has thirty days to veto it. So any further comment? A motion was made
to adopt Ordinance 2009-04 by Councilman Howett. The motion was
seconded by Councilman Manns. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said
so be it ordained.
Closing of the Public Hearing at 8:04PM and Reopening of Regular Meeting
A motion was made by Councilman Howett to close the public hearing at 8:04 PM
Closing of Public Hearing at 8:04PM and Reopening of Regular Meeting(cont.)
Page 15
The motion was seconded by Councilman Noll. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said
hearing is closed and I’d like to reopen the regular meeting.
Councilman Snyder asked anything else for the solicitor?
Engineer’s Report
Councilman Snyder said engineer’s report.
Bid Open Mr. Malesker said lets get started with the bid opening for the flood
for the impoundment area restoration. Here are the checks that the bidders paid
Flood for the spec books. Here’s a copy of all the bids that were submitted.
Impound- The bid tab is attached to the engineer’s report. Take a look at that.
ment Area Our estimate was in the $115,000.00 to the $120,000.00 range. Low
Restoration bid was Abel Construction at $98,592.75. Councilman Allar said it
was in that range county engineering? Mr. Malesker said whats
that? Councilman Allar said the bid was in that range including
engineering, construction was at $100,000.00, the estimate. Mr.
Malesker said we had the revised construction estimate at
I believe $125,000.00. Councilman Allar said not the last one
that Jason sent. Mr. Malesker said that was my understanding so
any way, they are the low bid and they do not have any sub contractors
listed. They are very capable of doing the work. They were actually
the ones, when we were getting estimates as this project moving along,
they were one of the ones that we had contacted so they probably
knew more about this project than some of the others. We had contacted
a couple. We had a good turnout. There is twelve bidders. Councilman
Snyder said two of them were under bid. Mr. Malesker said with that,
I’d recommend that the bid be awarded to Abel Constuction at their
cost of $98,592.75. Councilman Snyder said and we have all the other
monies in place from the county, and. Mr. Malesker said yes, we’re
waiting, we don’t have the Growing Greener money yet. We had asked
Felicia about that, she hasn’t gotten back to us. Councilman Allar
said Seth said this is a good price. I’m saying, its winter time, these
companies are hurting to keep their crew together. They don’t
have a lot of business anyways because we have a recession. We
took $20,000.00 out because we don’t have to worry about the
dirt. So, you know, keep in mind we still have wetland mitigation.
And the whole idea here, is to the estimate to hold, we would have
excess money, that $20,000.00 that we would save going to Red Lion.
We could use that for relocation of the wetlands. I know they’re
requesting more Growing Greener money, we don’t have it yet and
if we don’t get it then we’re on the hook for $30,000.00 for relocation
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 16
of the wetlands. We don’t have a reserve, that $20,000.00 deal
with Red Lion that’s gone, with this contract. Something,
is off somewhere. I don’t know what happened. I didn’t expect
any of these numbers to come out like this. Mr. Malesker
said I know Jake had said his, Jake Romig did not bid on this,
he wasn’t able to get a bond for whatever reason. Councilman
Allar said basically we’re moving dirt, that’s it, we’re going to
put some concrete things in there but basically its taking
dirt out and driving it a few hundred yards up the road. Councilman
Snyder said and that’s why I think we went high, I think Jason
was saying all along, we’re probably looking at closer to the
$120,000.00. And. I know you had always had a problem with
that, you always thought it was high. And you always thought we’d
get it down to $60,000.00 with what we did. Councilman Allar said
but if you remember, I believe it was said when I asked this question,
Jason, you know how much money we got, and that’s a fixed thing,
are we wasting our time Jason, can you double check your numbers and
make sure we can do it with the money we have, or we just going
to be unwheeled. Jason went back out, crunched the numbers, talked
to vendors and talked to so and so, cost per ton for a certain rip rap.
He came backed and said, yeah I made that estimate years ago, and its
still good. I don’t know, six, seven months ago. Councilman Snyder
said I guess I’m not quite following. Councilman Allar said the estimate
was $100,000.00 for construction and $20,000.00 thereabouts for
engineering. So I think, it was $103,000.00 for construction the whole
thing came out to be $123,000.00. And he verified it. Councilman
Snyder said it came in at $98,000.00, we’ve been paying the engineering
all along. Councilman Allar said right, what you’re not following is.
Councilman Snyder said so, aren’t we under what. Councilman Allar said
what you’re not following is, the estimate was before we had the deal
with Red Lion. In other words the $20,000.00 for the dirt, we contract
with someone and he may be taking it ten miles away. That cost factor
is now out, it was in the estimate, its not in the real world anymore.
So I expected that $20,000.00 to be put back in with a lower number and
that would be used then to make ourselves well because its going to
be coming out of our pocket to relocate the wetlands. Councilman
Noll said you basically hoping to see $100,000.00 versus $120,000.00.
Saving $20,000.00. Councilman Allar said and the construction cost
to come in around $80,000.00. Because, the single biggest cost was
removing the dirt and transporting and now they only have to move it
a couple hundred yards. So that we took out. Councilman Snyder asked
is it possible that they’re looking at whether I have to move it ten miles
or I have to move it 200 yards, I’m still moving dirt. Mr. Malesker
said part of the problem is that there is 4,000 cubic yards of material
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 17
to move. That’s a lot of material. Councilman Allar said that’s up
a thousand from Jason’s estimate, he had 3000. Mr. Malesker
said well based on whatever the current topography is, the
sediment that’s in there. Councilman Snyder said you get more
sediment every rainfall. Mr. Malesker said you say an average
of 3500, that’s a lot of trucks going back and forth. Councilman
Allar said, all I’m saying it is what it is. Councilman Snyder said
I’m looking at is as, you have $120,000.00 for the project. Councilman
Allar said actually we’ve got more than that. Councilman Snyder said
well yeah, we’re not even talking the $11,000.00 that we got from Ron
Miller. We’ve got $120,000.00 earmarked for the project, we have
been paying for the engineering out of our own budget all along. So
the way I’m looking at it, we have a $98,000.00 as long as there’s not
a lot of overages, that gives us $22,000.00 that we can pay towards
the mitigation, add that to the $11,000.00 that we got from Ron Miller,
we have $33,000.00 that we can work on for the mitigation. Because
as far as I know, how you’re looking at $20,000.00 for engineering,
we’ve already been paying the engineering, I mean so I don’t count
that as part of the $120,000.00. Councilman Allar said but I am,
because that’s the money from our pockets. We want to cover that,
if we can cover it through grants or through pledges from other
municipalities whatever, again I could have gotten all that if I went
in with good solid number, I could have gotten another ten, fifteen,
twenty thousands, I can only work with the numbers I’m given.
Councilman Noll said I guess the question is, do we feel we can recoup
any of this engineering costs, is it money that the borough spent in
light of the fact that we have wetlands mitigation. I guess the answer
is probably not. Mr. Malesker said well, there is still a chance that, that
additional Growing Greener money is going to come through. Councilman
Allar said we also saved on construction costs by what Dana did, all
that tree work, the contractor doesn’t have to do that. There are all kind
of things we took off the contract. Councilman Snyder said I don’t know,
I’m just looking at it, when we originally applied for that money, we’re
talking two years ago. Councilman Allar said that’s what I’m saying,
when Seth asked Jason, are we wasting our time, are we spinning our
wheels. That wasn’t five years ago, that was this year. Councilman Noll
asked Steve, I don’t know if you have anything here, what are we looking at for engineering costs yet to go on this project. Do you have a budget or
an estimate because I know we ran into, its very tight up in the park, and
we’re watching that. Mr. Malesker said right. Yeah, what what we have,
I gave the estimate for what we need for the construction stake out, I
gave you an estimate for I guess that was. Councilman Noll said we still
have to pay for all the spec books, the time you put everything together,
the bids together, bid tabs, we haven’t been billed for any of that yet.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 18
Mr. Malesker said some of the, I’m not sure what was on the last
invoice but that would have included the time that went into putting
the things together. This was advertised in October, stuff had to
be put together prior to that date so. The secretary said the last
bill that I got, which will be due December 4th, was $2573.44 and
the latest date on here, is October 16th so its through October 16th.
Its for all different, YCPC grants, letter to the York County
Commissioners, special review, spec books, permit for dam
maintenance, meetings, letters, project coordination. That bill
will be paid in the beginning of December. Mr. Malesker said
that’s going to include a lot of the spec book plan production time.
The secretary said that’s going to take your total cost up over
$30,000.00, that you paid so far for engineering. Since 2006.
Councilman Noll said that being the case, what do you have left then
say today, to the end of this project. $10,000.00. Mr. Malesker said
I can tell you what we have for. Councilman Noll said again just
want to make sure everyone is anticipating all those costs. Mr.
Malesker said I gave you estimates for, we had asked for an additional
$30,800.00 through Growing Greener. Councilman Allar said if
we get the Growing Greener, we’re okay. But that’s the big if.
Councilman Snyder said that’s the one thing, well that’s the meeting
I missed back in the summer time. When this whole discussion came
up that it was going to cost like $30,000.00 for this wetland mitigation.
The first thing I thought when I read it, was where are we coming up
with this money. Its like, I thought, matter of fact I mentioned it to
you when we met here with Steve about the park and I said my idea
I thought they were putting the wetlands and since they had to put
them in anyways, once they do all their little things, we just get
credit back, and say okay, we’re giving you ¾ of an acre, .76,
whatever you needed and it offset. I didn’t understand where $30,000.00
is coming to us, it should have been that simple. And if we had to
watch our little ¾ of acres for five years, so be it. But York Township
had to put in 8 acres of wetlands anyways, why are giving them anything.
Hey, give us three quarters of an acre. Councilman Noll said actually,
their grant doesn’t cover any of the wetlands. Councilman Allar said
they’re not putting them in. Councilman Snyder said they have to put
them in, because that was the deal when they put in Sage Hill because
I sat in those meetings. They allowed him to put those buildings in
at Sage Hill and the idea was he was going to have to mitigate wetlands
in order to do it. Where he was purposing those buildings. Now if they
took on the responsibility. Councilman Noll said that’s kind of what
happened, instead of putting in the wetlands, he donated that 8 acres
or whatever that acreage was to York Township, to create a park which
got him off the hook. Councilman Snyder said uh huh, didn’t they
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 19
still have to create 8 acres of wetland. They are still creating
the park? Councilman Noll said because its green space.
Councilman Snyder said okay, back on this. Mr. Malesker
said as far as, from what I understood from Jason, he contacted
Abel, Abel is the one that gave him the cost estimates all along.
Because he asked, I know he had asked what the savings was
going to be for using Red Lion as a dump site. He said $20,000.00.
I’m not sure what his cost estimate was before, but if this price
doesn’t reflect that $20,000.00 savings then I don’t know what
happened with Abel Construction. They are the low bid, that’s
who we got the estimate from, Jake Romig’s estimate was
85, it would be around 85, 86 if he were able to bid so that
would have saved some money. He was heavily involved with
design of. Councilman Allar asked and the specs clearly identified
where the dump site is. Mr. Malesker said oh yeah. Councilman
Snyder said and whose to say that they didn’t take advantage
of you making their job easier. They see that you did their work
for them. They would have been responsible for the dump site.
They would have charged us $100,000 anyways. You just provided
them with a dump site, so you just bumped up their profit. Mr.
Malesker said it’s a competitive bid so I don’t think they would
have. Councilman Allar said not at this time, not again, you
have a winter contract and you have a slow time. Councilman
Snyder said then I wonder if their $20,000.00 isn’t reflected in
the fact, of these others ones, $132, $135. Councilman Noll said
I think the prices are right where we thought they’d be. But
they’re a little higher than what we expected. We expected them
to be higher. I guess I’m not saying, we’re hoping they’d be
lower given anything. But this is. I’m not all surprised by it, I
just want to make sure. Mr. Malekser said giving the economy,
the time of the year that this is happening, traditionally contracts
don’t have a lot on their plate at this time. You would think
that the price, and with the amount of people bidding, 12 bidders,
you would have thought that the prices would have been lower.
Mr. Shearer said I think that the business that they’re lacking
in the commercial, sometimes it seems, that government are
the only ones doing the work. So they’re, I wouldn’t say their
fleecing us but they may have to pad a little bit off a government
contract because there is no other work to do. So. Councilman
Noll said you’re still getting, when you have 12 people, you are
getting the best price out there. Mr. Shearer said that’s what I
mean, you’re it , they’ve got to make their profit off of us.
Councilman Snyder said that’s what I’m saying, I mean the
idea is, had you not, gone and got that deal with Red Lion,
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 20
maybe the best deal we would have seen, would have been
$110,000.00, actually this one is $103. Councilman Allar
said it would have been $120,000.00, 20 plus whatever
figure is here. Councilman Noll asked what do anticipated
that is left for engineering, $5,000.00, $10,000.00. Mr.
Malesker said I would say between, depending on how
much you want to use us for construction inspection, contract
administration, doing the as built and stake out and that stuff,
is going to be between $4 and $5,000.00 for that and an
option would be to use Jake Romig for construction inspection
also. I know he bills at around $75.00 an hour. Councilman
Allar said the idea would, I think you were talking to Ferris
at Kinsley, is that Ferris, that Kinsley pays for it, because
they didn’t do it right the first time. Jake has been doing a lot
of things for us for free. Mr. Malesker said well what Ferris
wouldn’t pay for, he would pay for, the wetland mitigation
portion, is what they would be responsible for, this I’m
suggesting, Jake is, he is a contractor that is very well qualified
to do this work, he wasn’t able to do it, because he wasn’t
able to get a bid bond, part of that was because it was in
a floodplain, I would think EcoConstruction would be able
to get a bond in a flood plain. But anyway, in order help keep
prices down, although he’s $75.00 an hour, is about the same
as what we would have for a construction inspector out there
doing the work. But he would be able to insure that. Councilman
Allar said what I’m saying is, whatever the dollar amount it
doesn’t matter, if you were going to get Kinsley to hone up to
the fact that they brought in Davis Landscaping from Harrisburg,
that didn’t know what they were doing. Councilman Noll said
as opposed to construction inspection. Councilman Snyder said
they’re two different things. Mr. Malesker said it is. Councilman
Allar said but I’m looking at it as one big continuous project. Still
talking about a lot of costs on our discussions. That is going to have
to come from somewhere. Councilman Snyder said and that’s why
he’s been very laxed with getting backed to me, I’m sure he’s in
contact with his higher up, people who own Knisely, they have
been in contact with Davis Landscaping. Davis Landscaping has
been putting them on the back burner because the contract we
have is with Kinsley. He knows he’s on the hook for us, I told
him, I’ve been playing the good cop/bad cop type of thing. I’m
your friend I’m trying to get you in on this while its still amiable and
we’re all working together. If we have to, I’m afraid that council
is going to vote to sue. I said our contract is with you. I said I understand
that your contract is with Davis Landscaping, that’s why we’re coming
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 21
to you because our contract is with you. All we’re trying to
get people that messed up in the past, to own up to their
responsibilities and join our team now. I said we already
got, Rettew on board and they’re doing their part with what
they didn’t do. They’re willing to do that. I said now we
still have this problem of the wetland mitigation reports, for
the next five years. I said maybe, I’ll even throw this out,
I said go back to whomever and see if you want buy us out.
If you don’t want to be on the hook with Yoe Borough for
the next five years, I said go back, we paid you $4600.00 under
that contract. We don’t want to have to file complaint with
the county and get Kinsley Construction barred from bidding on
any CDBG grants because you screwed us out of our contract.
We don’t want play that. I said maybe you want to contribute
money toward the project and say we’re done. I’m sure I can
get that passed through council. I said you got to let me know
if you want to play our game or not. And he said I’ll get back to
you. Its probably been about month and half now. Councilman
Allar said the only reason I bring it up now is because when
Steve gave us the estimate of all this wetland mitigation, we’re
looking at $30,000.00 bullet that’s coming between our eyes.
You can’t kind of look at this as, if we can cut out a piece down
here, such as inspections, which you’re going to have to do
for five years. Then we can afford a little bit more of spending
it up front. You’re still reducing your engineering costs, that’s
all I’m trying to get at. And. Councilman Snyder said I think,
so, here’s and this is what, John Klinedinst, he said that’s where
we went down the slippery slope, with this whole project and
we never got here’s what we’re going get, here’s how much its
going to cost you. And that’s why, we’re still putting money in
and we don’t know like you’re saying, how much more do we
have to go. We don’t have, like what we got for the storm water
thing, which we’ll discuss, we got a $17,000.00 figure at the
end of the $17,000.00 this is the product we should have. You
know here we are, in the park, in with this project, we have
council people doing jobs of the engineer, you’re expecting
to get a $20,000.00 cost savings for doing part of their work,
for finding a dump site or whatever to help keep costs down.
It didn’t happen, now we want to blame Jason’s figures or
something, its like I don’t where it happened, I think what we
need. What Seth’s trying to get at, cause I think that’s where
your first original question was, how much more engineering
are we still looking to do this $98,000.00 project, how much
engineering do you think, what else has to be done with this
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 22
project. If we can say, this is what needs to be done, this is how
much its going to cost you. And we can say, we know we’ll have
$105,000.00 into it. That gives us $15,000.00 to go towards the
next project which I’m considering mitigation another project.
When Tom starts talking about the mitigation, trying to move
money here and there. We’re combining two projects and that’s
going to hurt you. I think what we need to do, is separate these
projects out and I think we need to look at Steve and say you
come back and tell us this is how much we’re going to charge you
to finish this project. We look at the wetland mitigation as a
separate project and then we have something to hold someone
accountable for. Because that’s the problem, accountable. Because
when you’re saying how much more money, inspections, and
stuff, right away Tom was thinking inspections of wetland mitigation.
You’re talking Jake Romig. And its like what inspections would
Jake being doing on this. I thought that was part of what your job
would be. Mr. Malesker said well yeah it would. Councilman Snyder
said so we need to clarify this right now, we need to accept the
bid, clarify what the scope of work is going to be and if you want
until December 1st to come back with a cost estimate and say this
is what we’ll do to finish up this project and this is what its going
to cost. And then we can see, hey, we’re just getting eaten alive
by these engineering fees, they’re not doing what they’re suppose
to, we’ll say no, this is what he said he was going to do and this
how much is going to cost us to get us to this point. Because to
be totally honest, I’m looking at this as a good figure, you’re looking
at it as bad figure. Cause I’m thinking if we have $20,000.00 in
for engineering, we’ve already paid that. Councilman Allar said
I’m only looking at it because we did this exercise, where we
asked, again, I said asked, go back touch the wall and come back
with a number, and that is brought before you. And we do this,
we actually do what you say, we do it every six months and then
we do it again. Councilman Noll said I think the important thing
is to have how much engineering we’ve got left so we know
we’ve got x amount of dollars left of this $120,000.00 that we
can put towards. Councilman Snyder said the next project.
Councilman Noll said the mitigation, and then, you know, do
what you’ve got to do to get the rest of the money in. Councilman
Snyder said when you’re talking, this is what is getting me all
confused, when you were talking about getting Jake in on some
of this, and I’m thinking, well what are you talking about because
I wasn’t thinking this get bid out. I thought it was your job. Mr.
Malesker said it would be, in trying to, we can easily do all
the construction inspection. But to get Jake, if you wanted Jake
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 23
involved in this project, he is qualified, he’s more qualified
to be the contractor but he could assist with the inspections
hoping to save a little money by using him. He. Councilman
Noll said I think a way to find out is to have you bid it and
Jake put a proposal in and see how it comes out. Mr. Malesker
said I don’t know he may not be willing to do all the contract
administration, you know to do the applications for payment
that kind of stuff, he would be focused on doing the actual.
Councilman Snyder said sort of, I guess what we’re getting at,
is we’re putting it out for bids without. Seeing if Jake can
come in a little cheaper. Councilman Allar said I think we’re
getting too deep into this, too complicated. Let’s stay with
the one, I don’t think the savings are going to be that critical.
Councilman Snyder said and that’s where I think we were
getting too confused. Councilman Noll said that’s why I
brought it up, I just wanted to make sure we were all on the
same page as where we are going. Mr. Malesker said I will
give you a detailed estimate like I did for the storm water,
breakdown exactly I think. I think last meeting I quoted a
price for the construction stake out, and the as built. The
secretary said yes, that was in there somewhere. Mr. Malesker
said I have those numbers, can’t find them, but I know, so
I’ll use those same numbers and I’ll add for. Councilman Snyder
said I think that’s the problem, when you said you gave numbers
for stake out, you gave numbers for whatever else you just said,
I think the problem is nobody knows, what else is it to the project.
Because that’s one thing, where you will get yourself into trouble.
If you say, its 1500 for this and 1500 for that, I know one thing
that I’d would do, I would think that is all we need to do to finish
the project. And then you come in with $3000.00 administrative
fee for lord knows what, I didn’t administration was in there, I
thought this was in there. So we need to hear from then, this is
what you need in engineering from us to finish out this project.
Councilman Noll said that makes it really easy, if we go outside
of the scope, it comes to in front of council, and we know why
we are paying extra. Councilman Snyder said exactly because
I think maybe where a lot of these problems get in, when you
just said that, I would have thought, well that’s all that’s needed
to do. I mean if there is surveying work, anything like that, that’s
not included then right away that opens up that can of worms,
then why is engineering higher that what you said it was going
to be. So. Mr. Malesker said I agree, we need to have a defined
scope budget and schedule, you need to see what the line items
are. Councilman Snyder asked did you need that? Mr. Malesker
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 24
said no, I’ll get that. Councilman Naylor said where are we at in
engineering for this project? The secretary said $30,000.00.
Mr. Malesker said I think this has been going on for five years.
The secretary said it will be four years next year. It started in
September 2005 with the first bill which was menial. The bills
really started popping in 2006. I started in August 2005, the bills
really started popping in April 2006. Councilman Snyder said
honestly, I think what our biggest problem was, I know we
all try, we just talked about budget, we all want to try help the
process along and see where we can cut costs I know I do that
with Pete on the legal end, I’ll do his paralegal work, or I’ll
draft up the ordinances, trying to keep the costs down. I think
where we find ourselves, is we end up trying help the engineer
along. And I think sometimes in the help, we get directed here,
we get directed there we turn our scope work around, it went
from a simple dredging so now we got, I can’t even call it
a forebay, it looks like a ten bay, I mean the whole total scope
of work has changed and I think that’s probably we get into
this $40,000.00 cost and we don’t even have a project bid out.
I think if we stick to, this is the project, you give us a cost, if
it goes over that, then you’re held accountable, if its not,
we want to know why, this gets us to the end product. Then if
we don’t get there then we have a reason to say why it didn’t.
Councilman Allar said the forebay does not contain information
that was concurred, it was the third edition of the forebay.
Councilman Snyder said yeah I know, I also know though,
that this at one time we were going to piggyback with York
Township. Councilman Allar said that had nothing to do with
our estimates. Councilman Snyder said no but that is part of the
$40,000.00 figure, as far as why, oh yeah that’s part of those
engineering things, he always put that in for the dams. Councilman
Allar said our estimates were always dreams of doing it outside,
our hard core numbers. Councilman Snyder said I’m not talking
about that, I’m talking about engineering costs, why we have
$40,000.00 engineering, its because we spent how many months,
with Jason contacting York Township to see if we could make a
go with. Councilman Allar said that’s not true, the only one
was me who contacted. Councilman Noll said I think this gets
back to what we’ve always needed to do and that’s why we’ve
had the problem with engineering, no defined scopes. As long as
we’re doing that, we can hold you accountable and hold us
accountable. Whatever that scope is, I think its just better for
everybody. Now if we find, that, say its another $10,000.00, we
really have a $110,000.00 project with what’s left with the
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 25
engineering and we have right now have $131,000.00 we get this
other money , its $160,000.00. So we have basically a $50,000.00
spread the dredging work, the reclamation work over at York
Township costs us $30,000.00, can we recoup the remaining
money from past spent engineering or have we lost that $30,000.00.
Can we go back and get that money and spend all the grant money
out? Have we lost that $30,000.00. Councilman Allar said we used
previous year’s money for engineering cost. Councilman Snyder
said do you understand the question? If we get that extra money
you requesting. Can we put some of these back? We paid for
this out of borough funds. Can we put some of that towards the
extra $46,000.00 or whatever you applied for? Mr. Malesker
said if its Growing Greener money it has to be for specific thing,
it would open up. Councilman Snyder said we could use. Mr.
Malesker said the money that’s coming from the other municipalities
is not earmarked for anything. Councilman Snyder said I was going
to say Ron Miller’s money could be used for that. Councilman Noll
said I just want to make sure that we direct our funds properly, depends
on how restricted. Councilman Allar said not just Ron Miller, we have,
I think we can use it any way we want to use it, $15,000.00, there is
$51,600.00 in the pocket for Growing Greener. $15,000.00 for
York County Intergovernmental Cooperation. There is $20,000.00
Yoe Borough, $20,000.00 York Township, $4,000.00 Dallastown,
$10,000.00 Red Lion, $2,400.00 from Windsor Township and $11,000.00
from Miller. So all those numbers except for that $51,600.00 we can
probably use anyway we want. Councilman Snyder said do you know
any time when we’re going to get that other fund. Mr. Malesker said
I was hoping to know before this meeting, I had contacted Felicia and
she never got back. Councilman Snyder said the one good thing is that
we have an early meeting coming up, December 1st. Councilman Allar
said the only thing I’m not sure about is intergovernment, if they
pay on receipt of bills. Councilman Snyder said well the worse that would
happen is between the intergovernment and the other $51,600.00 from the
state that would just cover their end. Councilman Noll said it would be
nice to get that money back because with the budget problem. $30,000.00
was already our problem. Councilman Snyder said you already when you
gave that $30,000.00 figure , then I contacted you and said Rettew is
willing to do some of this work and I said probably you can get Kinsley,
that’s going to reduce that $30,000.00 figure to begin with, so hopefully
we don’t have that whole $30,000.00. Councilman Allar said one thing
at a time, then I can work on the other. Councilman Snyder said , say
pay up, send us the money. Okay so then, you’ll get that for next month’s
meeting, that way everyone is clear on that. Councilman Noll said also,
are there any restrictive dates on this money , we have to spend it by
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 26
June 1st of next year. Mr. Malesker said not that I’ve been aware of,
I know Growing Greener, they’ve been waiting for the technical
clearance order from DEP which we sent them, we were hoping to
hear from the grant center before today’s meeting but they never
got back to us. Councilman Noll said none of them have a spent
by date on them, you have to spend it within 180 days. Mr. Malesker
said not that I’m aware of. If the project is awarded tonight it would
be spent very quickly because. Councilman Allar said the contractor
has sixty days, if it’s not done in 60 days, the contractor pays $500.00.
Mr. Malesker said for liquidated damages. Councilman Snyder said
okay. So you know what you’re going to have to do and then our
next thing is to accept the low bid from Abel Construction of
$98,592.75. A motion was made by Councilman Allar to accept the low
bid from Abel Construction of $98,592.75. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Howett. In favor: Councilman Snyder, Councilman
Manns and Councilman Naylor Abstaining: Councilman Noll
Councilman Manns asked if there were any subs for Abel. Mr. Malesker
said there are no subs on Abel. Councilman Manns said I just wanted
to make sure there were no other contractors. Councilman Snyder said
when it was mentioned 12 bidders, doesn’t this page say page 1 of 1
on it. There is two pages. Councilman Snyder said okay one abstention.
Councilman Snyder said motion carried.
Mitigation Mr. Malesker said while we are on the same subject, I have met with
Plan Jake to discuss the mitigation plan. Let this mitigation plan go to far
then have when York Township bids out their part, have Yoe Borough
lose control of what you want mitigated. What we had talked to
Danko about was pressing forward, getting the mitigation plan done,
and also have him forgive the borough for having the 120 days to
submit the mitigation plan. One can’t be submitted yet anyway,
the construction that York Township is going to do, take place,
until 2012. So there, there is so much time that’s still out there, so
none of this can even be constructed until then. So you can’t do
your draft conservation easement and those types of things until
then so there is such a time delay we wanted to get an official letter
from him asking that its, Yoe Borough is proceeding with the plan,
couldn’t been done within the 120 days. What I did, is attached a
letter that will need to be on Yoe Borough letterhead and then
coming from you, its at the end of the engineer’s report here. Councilman
Allar said its clearly a formality, Danko knows where we are at.
Mr. Malesker said it is a formality but that was a pretty straight
forward letter that came from them, I just want to make sure, which
came with at $27,000.00. The secretary said I’ll have that done tomorrow,
its on the top of my list, won’t be able to go to the mail until Thursday
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 27
but I’ll put it in anyhows and Sam you can come down tomorrow
around one to sign it. Councilman Snyder said if you could, since
we just talk this about cost estimates, make sure, I don’t know
if its been like that before, I know you have job labor codes and
stuff, make sure that once you break down how much its going
to cost to finish up this project. We need to keep wetlands, even
though we’re talking about one project, we need to keep wetland
mitigation as a separate cost factor than this. The secretary said
you are doing that. Mr. Malesker said yes, its two separate
project numbers. Councilman Snyder said when I thought about
that, that is one thing that is going to throw your numbers off.
You are still talking to Jake Romig. The secretary said you are
already incurring costs for that, you have been for the past
couple months. Mr. Malesker said so, with this, I don’t know
if Tom wants to have any input on this, it is a formality, I just
didn’t want. Councilman Snyder asked you saw that latest one.
Mr. Malesker said yes. Councilman Snyder said okay, that’ll
go out tomorrow. The secretary said the mail doesn’t go tomorrow
because its Veteran’s Day since I have copy these, and I’ll
copy one for you. Mr. Malesker asked if the secretary wanted
the electronic copy, the secretary said no, this will be fine. It
won’t take me long. No big deal. Councilman Allar asked Steve,
what would you guess the start date, rough guess? Mr. Malesker
said if we award it tonight, which we did, I’ll let them know
tomorrow. We’ll get the contract sent out, we give the contractor
fifteen days to get everything back to us. Then we review the
insurance make sure that is okay. So typically its around three
weeks. Then we talk with the contractor to do a NTP, a notice
to proceed, all that. So well within three to four weeks, he
could be started by the middle of December on this. Councilman
Allar said before we change topics, on the basin again just some
lose ends. The one reason for the start again, you were able to
contact Miller about the cameras, however you are going to handle
that. He definitely wants someone from Yoe there. This has to
be done before the construction. One item, I went through the blue-
prints and I didn’t see it, and I know we talked about it. Dana and I
talked about this. To do the maintenance, assuming we’re going
to use York Township, is working off that bank. We need some
sort of stone road there. I didn’t see that in there. I know we
will need it from time. Obviously, settlement is going to come in,
when there is a rain event so the bank is going to be mushy. So it
is going to be difficult to get anyone in to take care of it. I don’t
know what kind of size that we’re going to make this. While the
contractor is out, seems to me that we should do it now rather have
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 28
than have him go home then Yoe Borough is going to have to do it.
Mr. Malesker asked you mean instead of there being a temporary
construction area there be a permanent with the stone? Councilman
Allar said some way that we can dredge from the bank without
going into the basin and getting stuck. You were at the meeting that
we had with York Township, where they have that one machine
with the arm. That would be operated from the bank, but if the bank
is swampy, its probably not going to be able to get out there. I’m
just throwing it out there, it seems to me, there could be a better
foundation for the trucks to do that. I didn’t see it in the blueprints,
unless I missed it. I know Dana looked at it too. Mr. Malesker said
I don’t think allowed for any. Councilman Allar said it could be a change
order, its not a big deal just. Mr. Malekser said just a matter of putting
in some additional stone out there. Councilman Allar otherwise, I mean,
I know you are focusing on getting the dirt out, I’m looking further
down the road. Mr. Malesker said in that area where the outfall from
across the street, where there are those stones, a lot of those are going
to have to be excavated out, and we’re allowing more stones to be
put in. Those could be moved up the bank to stabilize the bank. There
shouldn’t be a change order to do that. Cause we were hoping to reuse
that, because those are R 5’s. Councilman Allar said I’m sure Red Lion
doesn’t want those boulders. Mr. Malesker said no, we want to keep
those on site anyways. Councilman Allar said and we don’t certainly
want to move them away. So that would very work its just somehow
we’ve got to make sure the contractor understands that. Mr. Malesker
said that’s just. Councilman Allar said and I don’t know if that needs
a change order. Mr. Malesker said no, that wouldn’t need a change
order. I would have confirm that with Abel, that requires no real
additional effort on their part. Councilman Allar said there are two
other things again, we talking the same area that bank. One of them is
the guide wire for that utility pole, its probably going to be where
these trucks are operated. So at some point, I don’t know who, some how
we need to contact the utility people to come and see what other
arrangements need to be made. I’m not sure if we can go up and down
that bank without hitting that wire. Mr. Malesker said none of the
contractors brought that up and saw that as a potential problem. So I
guess, what they are thinking, they can avoid that, I mean. Councilman
Allar said I’m not talking about construction, I’m talking about
maintenance. I’m talking about full time. Indefinitely into the future.
Councilman Noll said just be careful with that, if you are talking about
moving a guide wire that can be very costly. Mr. Malesker said yeah.
Councilman Allar said I’m just putting that out there. Mr. Malesker
said utility relocation can be very expensive and can take some time
also. Councilman Allar said we are building this thing, and we have
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 29
to maintain it, if we don’t have maintain it we will be right back where
we were five years ago. So. Its always been there, I’m not bringing
up anything new. Goes with the whole concept of sediment control
and then removing it. Mr. Malesker said that is something we could look
into as part of this contract, I’m not sure what utility. Do you know
owns the pole Dana? Mr. Shearer said it’s a Met Ed pole. Councilman
Allar said and similar to that is the fencing. Again with talking to
Dana, it probably should be reset back, would you say three feet, four
feet? Mr. Shearer said we could probably use some more room there to
work on the bank. Councilman Allar said we’re not talking about taking
the fence down permanently, taking it down for construction purposes.
At some point its still, it needs to somehow be recessed back and the
line. Councilman Noll said is it part of the contract? Councilman Allar
said it could be part of a change order. Councilman Noll said it’s a
chain link fence. Councilman Allar said we’ve got a 120 to 130 foot
run there. Mr. Malesker said if they need to take the fence down for
any reason, I’m sure part of it will be. It’s easy enough to ask if they
can put it back in another location. Councilman Allar said its just,
to keep in mind that, if they do take it down and we don’t tell them,
they’re going to put it back to where it was. They’re going to go home
and we’re going to have to move it. Mr. Malesker said by moving it
to a different location it could mean you need some additional fence.
Councilman Allar said probably. Mr. Malesker said there would be
a change order, either a change order or the borough busy the fence,
which would probably be cheaper, just have them put it in. Councilman
Allar said its something for discussion now, sometimes they sub the
fence out to someone else. If you don’t talk about it. Mr. Malesker
said this would be something to talk about at a preconstruction
meeting. To make sure that we have, all these things on the agenda,
and we talk about all these items. Councilman Naylor asked how
many feet of this fence has to be moved back? Councilman Allar said
well its, I don’t know. I’m going to let Dana tell us that. Mr. Malesker
said and Dana will be part of those meetings, I’m sure he is out
there daily when they are doing the work. Councilman Allar asked do
you have the, with the blueprints there you can see how much the
fence line is? The J hooks, if that is what you call them, they run pretty
much from where the stream enters our property all the way down to
the spillway, and then they wrap around. You’ll looking at about that
whole fence line, because you’re going bring a truck in, scoop it out,
drop the truck back a little bit. So you’re work that whole line, if you
look at the blueprint, there is somewhere about 10 to 12 of these. Mr.
Malesker said the only ones that are meant to be cleaned are the first
three big ones. The other ones are designed to be self cleaning. So
the ones that have the sediment traps in are the big ones and those are
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 30
the ones in the first three bays. Councilman Allar asked aren’t the
other ones going to collect at all? Mr. Malesker said well they will
collect some but the idea they will collect behind the big rock but
those won’t need to be cleaned like the other ones. The intent
is that sediment will build up and once it gets to the top will wash
over. Councilman Allar asked and where will it wash to coming
across the basin? Mr. Malesker said well, it will go downstream,
it is meant to be self cleaning. Councilman Allar said its not
going to necessarily leave the basin. Mr. Malesker said if the
channel stays the way it is designed to stay, it should stay in
the channel. Councilman Allar asked you don’t think that its
better to remove it? Mr. Malesker said well, I think at sometimes,
that it will need to be removed, but its not designed, its not a
routine thing. When Jake and Jason did the design of the first
three J hooks, those three are designed to trap the sediment, the
other ones will get sediment but they aren’t designed. Councilman
Allar said once they fill up, the purpose to trap it is no longer
functional. Councilman Naylor said those others ones will need
to be cleaned out too, some point and time. Councilman Allar said
and we don’t know when that is, how deep rain event and how
often. And how many new houses go up. Councilman Naylor said
that is in anticipation but not sure how often. Councilman Snyder
said right now considering we’re talking about the original cost
that came in, I’d hate to be putting in a $5000.00 change order
to put fence back on something you’re telling us isn’t designed,
it is designed to be self cleaning that we shouldn’t have to worry
about. Councilman Naylor said we’ll that is fine, how much fence
do we have to move, how many posts do we have to pull out to
accomplish it. Councilman Snyder said just access to the first
three weirs is what you’re saying. Mr. Malesker said yeah. And
there’s different ways that you can go about cleaning those outs.
I know talking about using a back hoe, but you can do it by
suction. You can simply put a filter bag on the bank and then you
put the hose in the water suck everything out that is contained in
the dirt bag, let the water decant and then you have a bag full of
organic material that any farmer would want. Councilman Allar
said you’re talking about equipment that we would have to get
in order to do it. Mr. Malesker said yes, unless York Township
has something like that, that they use for their inlets. I know there
are some of the bigger municipalities that use equipment like
that. Councilman Naylor said my question was going to be with
what York Township is offering, how far out these weirs that
we need to reach with a back hoe? Councilman Allar said you
can’t you have to pull the guide in and out. Mr. Malesker said
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 31
and we went over that with Bob Miller. Councilman Allar said
Miller thought he could reach it. Mr. Shearer said if you look at
the bottom item on my report. After talking to Tom about this, and
just wanted to touch base with York Township I had talked with
Tim Poff. I know he hadn’t been involved in any of the conversations.
But he did follow up with it, and did the work for me and talked
to Scott. And Scott went to Elizabeth. From what I got back from
Tim is, the township is committed the money for the dredging that
they said they would, the township is committed to their share of
the maintenance agreement, that is all that the township is committed
to at this time. The township is not committed at this time to bring
the back hoe or the manpower down there. The maintenance expenses
is going to come back on us, they will share it. Councilman Noll said
the reason that they have not committed is, my suspicion is they
want to rewrite the maintenance agreement. Councilman Snyder said
that may be our best bargaining chip to rewrite the maintenance
agreement. When Dana first told me that. I thought okay, doesn’t
surprise me. We have a duty we knew that was one of the things that
you brought up Seth when we decided to go with this fore bay concept.
Where are we getting ourselves with maintenance and upkeep in the
future. We knew that there was this unknown variable out there. We
thought we could work with York Township, they said no. Okay,
we still have an unknown factor, its going to unknown factor. Steve
is saying we only have to maintain these first three weirs and after
that it should be self cleaning. So York Township doesn’t want to
be part in it, they don’t have to be a part in it. If we have to contract
this out, and its $10,000.00 a year, we bill them back $3333.00. You
know, we bill back one third. And when they finally get to a point,
when they say our third is that expensive, maybe you could offer to
help or something. Maybe that’s when they open it back up but for
right now, it may cost $10,000.00 to maintain it, may cost us
$3000.00 a year to maintain it. Until they’re built and working we
don’t know what its going to be and what its going to entail. Like I
even told Dana, they may change from rainfall to rainfall. You may
get in there and have to clean them out every significant rainfall or
you find its just once a season. Councilman Naylor said from where
they are back and sit and reach out, you may fourteen to sixteen
feet with an extend a hoe and that’s reaching out level. Councilman
Snyder said and I think that is how it was designed to be able to
reached with a back hoe, those first three. Mr. Malesker said yeah.
Councilman Allar said keep in mind, Seth, Steve and myself we did
meet with Elizabeth. As well as Miller. And at that time, they had
no problem. Councilman Snyder said and now you see why I said
before, and forgive me for having someone who works with the
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 32
township, you can’t always trust and count on until it actually happens.
They are willing to work with you and I love working with them but
sometimes things happen outside their control that all of sudden just
like that it changes and you have to learn to adapt. This time we’re
adapting. They’ll be a reason, like you say, I don’t what to say, its
speculative at this point on what its going to cost. Just like with
the mowing, it started out with contracting out the mowing, they
saw it was expensive, lets take it ourselves. I think that is what will
happen with this, they’ll see there is cost factor there. They’ll see
that they have people standing around, and this equipment standing
around and they’ll say we can help cut costs by offering it. And I
think in a year or two, you might see it come around. For whatever
reason its not in the plan right now and at this point the thing isn’t even built. We’re going to have that problem next year with budget and
we’re going to sit here and say how much will we budget. Councilman
Allar said its worth talking about, we have a contract and we have
keep in mind because of the maintenance. We need to make sure
that there is something in the contract that we can change that’s all.
Otherwise we’re going to build it, and then we’re going to find that
we can’t maintain, we can’t reach it, there’s no equipment out there,
its incredibly expensive. I’m just saying these are things. Councilman
Snyder said we might have to bid it out, get someone like Fitz and
Smith in, on a yearly basis. We don’t know. Councilman Allar said
said if its on a yearly basis, we’re screwed, we haven’t done anything.
Councilman Snyder said until it is in place and working we don’t
know. Its not like there is a major development going that’s going
to be dumping a lot of silt. The silt’s already there, its going to be
wash out for upstream so you may find out on a annual basis, we
don’t need. Councilman Allar said they’re still building the Paddock,
that’s development. Councilman Snyder said I mean, we really
don’t know. Councilman Noll said one thing I don’t how we’ve
got our budget set up, I know we’ve got in terms of maintenance
up there, should we have a separate code for that type of
maintenance to say this is what is costing us. That way we’re
not trying to extrapolate the money. Councilman Snyder said
she actually breaks that down on an annual basis, when costs
come in she’ll break it down and bill that out to each municipality
so we’ll be able to see what the dredging is going to cost, that’s
going to be another cost factor that she’s going put in. The
secretary said I bill York Township and Dallastown on a yearly
basis. Councilman Noll said I’m just saying when you do that,
that I’d list the specific task too. The secretary said its charged
to dam maintenance. I’m going to show you Dana’s wages,
equipment, mowing, cleaning out the weirs. Councilman Snyder
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 33
said I think what you want, she’s going to show. Councilman
Noll said you may be doing it already. The secretary said
you won’t see the cleaning of weirs/dredging until January
2011, I’ll be working on 2009 in January/February of 2010.
It will be broken out, 1/3 will be shown and you’ll see where
I have to bill, what it costs the borough, what it costs Dallastown
and what it costs York Township as part of the maintenance
agreement. Councilman Noll said that way we have a cost
history. Councilman Snyder said we will see that it costs
$4,000.00 for dredging. The secretary said next year for your
budget, you might have to up you dam maintenance again, from
the $3000.00 to $7000.00. Councilman Snyder said we did
up it to $25,000.00. The secretary said if you are going to
be starting your project in mid December 2009. Councilman
Allar said I’m going to give you a letter, if he is going to
sign the contract I’m going to give you a letter next week.
The secretary said you’re darn right, because we need to
have the money in place if we are going to start getting bills.
Councilman Allar said if we sent the letter out, it doesn’t mean
that the check is going to come out in the following mail.
The secretary said I would help that money would come in
by end of December. The secretary said the bill will go out
in February to Dallastown and York Township. Councilman
Noll said we need to get this out by December 1st. Councilman
Allar said I’ll get it out but I’m saying I don’t know when
we’ll get the check. The secretary said we want to get it in,
in this budget year. Councilman Snyder said I’m sure they’ll
want to pay it in this budget year too. The secretary said
by December 31st, yes, we hope they do.
Park Mr. Malesker said lets go on to the park then. As long as there
no other questions about the flood impoundment.
Flood