Page 150 NORTH MAPLE STREET
1 YOE, PA 17313
The regular monthly meeting of Yoe Borough Council was held on February 5, 2008 at the Yoe Borough Municipal Building, 150 N. Maple Street, Yoe, PA. The meeting was called to order by Council President Sam Snyder at 7:07PM with the
Pledge of Allegiance.
Council Members in Attendance: Sam Snyder
Others in attendance: Sandy Sterner, Secretary-Treasurer
Dana Shearer, Maintenance
Pete Solymos, Solicitor
Jason Reichard, Engineer
Rev. Roger Mentzer and Amy Myers of
Bethlehem United Methodist Church/Summer
Adventure Day Camp
Mike Calaman, Dallastown Cougars
A motion was made by Councilman Howett to accept the meeting minutes of January 7, 2008 as presented. The motion was seconded by Councilman Allar. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried.
Councilman Snyder said on to visitors. First on the agenda, Amy Myers.
Reverend Mentzer said Amy is here, I’ll do the business of introducing her and I’ll give
a brief explanation of the history, it will be helpful to you. A number of years ago,
Dallastown Borough. My name is Roger Mentzer, Pastor of Bethlehem United Methodist
Church on Main Street in Dallastown. Reverend Mentzer said a number of years ago,
the Borough of Dallastown decided to discontinue their community sponsored summer
camp for the children of the community and they didn’t really want to discontinue it
but they didn’t want to run it. So they went to the churches of the community and asked
whether or not we’d be willing to band together to sponsor such a program. And at the
Dallastown Yoe Ministerium which is the consortium of the number of churches in the
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area, we discussed it but basically the churches of that organization chose not to go
ahead with it. But I felt as though if something, if we could possibly do it then we should
do it and so Bethlehem United Methodist Church began to operated the program. We
operated the program to be a similar program to most summer camps. We would hire
staff out of the college aged community. And get someone who would be a good holder
to manager that staff then we moved forward with a Christian based program. We’ve been running it for four years, this will be our fifth year and as we look over the landscape, we find that Yoe’s park seems to be a setting that we would very much enjoy.
We have been having the program at the Community Park behind the Fire Hall in
Dallastown. There are some indications to that particular park. That would be better at
Yoe’s park. However, you need some information. This is Amy Myers, who’s been
directing the park’s program for the last two years and will continue for the third. She has
prepared an information sheet but would be able to answer any questions you may have.
Ms. Myers said the paper I just passed out is basically a lot of information, basic information about the camp. And again if you have any questions. Going down with what
Summer Adventure Day Camp really is. It’s a faith based summer camp with a lot of children that can learn and grow with each other. Its age’s kindergarten through sixth grade. So it’s a kind of wider range of ages but they all get along pretty well. We tend to have the older kids grouped together and do activities with their counselors. We do also do a lot of large group activities, everyone to do things to together. It’s kind of nice for everyone, to get to know everybody. Staff members, we have about eight to nine members including myself. Most of us, there’s actually two of us that graduated college and have teaching degrees. And the rest of the staff is college students. I believe they’re all sophomores this year. And we actually have one volunteer, high school student that loved it and will do it again in a heart beat. She was a pleasure to have as well. So again we try to make sure we have the older kids so to speak, be the ones that are in charge. We try to tend to stay away from the high school age because of the closeness of age and maturity level. Reverend Mentzer said I want to say on behalf of the staff, each one of them must submit to a state police background check and the check against the Child Abuse Registry in the state of Pennsylvania. We know what we have. Ms. Myers said every staff member is certified in first aid and CPR. Last year at Dallastown, we were right by the fire hall so if something happened,we were right there. But with the little cuts and scarps and bruises, we can take care of that. We don’t have to call Mom and Dad, say oh, they have a scratch. We can take care of it. We just report it to the parents when they come to pick them up. Enrollment each year, we usually have between 100 and 120 children that enroll in the camp. However our weekly average is about 50 to 60 campers.
The one nice thing about this camp is they only have to pay for the weeks that they’re there. So it’s not like some of the day cars where you pay for the entire summer whether you’re there or not. So this gives the family a chance to go on vacation and you don’t have to worry about spending the money for the camp that week. We actually have a lot of campers who go to athletic camps. They might do a half day with us and go to the athletic camp the other half of the day. It’s a nice thing that the campers can do that stuff.
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They can come to us as well. We always make sure that we have at 10:1 ratio. Our first
two weeks, our averages are up a little bit just because people start to take their vacations close to the end of June. That week after school’s out, people start taking their vacation at the end of June, beginning of July. Our numbers are up, but that’s why we have 8 to 9 staff members. People tend to wait to take their vacation so our numbers drop down. We always have that 10:1 ratio for safety precautions, so there is enough supervision for the campers. Tuition, last year our rates were $45.00 for the first child, if the family had more than one child, its $45.00 for the first child, $40.00 for any additional child. Gives the family a little bit of break. if they enroll more than one child. Tuition includes bowling and swimming, we go up to Dallastown High School to the pool. I think they get a pretty good rate for the camp. Activities, again we do the weekly bowling and swimming. We also do field trips. We’ve gone to Utz Potato Chip Factory, Wolfgang’s, Perrydell, Holt Acres(the robotic dairy farm). We’ve gone to Lake Tobias. We try to do a weekly field trip to try to break up the week. We also do special lunches, we’ll take two days out of the week, one day will be hot dogs and one day will be pizza. It’s optional, some kids don’t like hot dogs, so they don’t get that special lunch that day. It’s a dollar for a hot dog or a dollar for a slice of pizza, chips and drink with it. Pretty good deal, the kids really like it. The staff members prepare the hot dogs. We get the pizza from Weis Markets. We
also do crafts and other large group games. Fridays are usually a water day, it its nice out.
Last year we got the bad luck of having cold Fridays. We don’t want to have the children getting all wet and being outside. We didn’t get to do many water days last year. They really like doing that stuff as well. The camp runs from 8AM to 4:30PM, Monday through Friday. To make it easier for the parents that they can drop their children off, they can come pick them up and it’s not too early of a drop off or too late of a drop off. Its pretty good times. I left a space there if any of you wanted to write anything down. If you have any questions, I’ll be glad to answer them. Councilman Allar asked what ages are there? Ms. Myers said kindergarten through sixth grade, they have to have completed kindergarten this year in order to get into the camp. Councilman Manns asked what are the beginning and ending dates? Ms. Myers said well a lot of the times that’s going to depend on when school let’s out. I’m not sure when. Reverend Mentzer said the Monday after school let’s out. If the let out on a Wednesday it will be the following Monday. It ends the second week of August because the staff has to go back to college. Amy is a teacher in phys-ed down in the Southeastern Schools, Kennerdale. Councilman Snyder asked what would you be looking for from the borough? Ms. Myers said we would like to have approval to use the park. One of the biggest assets that I saw when I went over to the park is the fact, the number of trees. I know when summer gets here the leaves are going to be out; it’s going to be shaded. And that was a big problem that we ran into last year, they did want to go out and play but when it gets so hot, like it’s been. They don’t want to be out in the sun. The parents don’t want them out in the sun. It’s too hot for them. And they sit under the pavilion and that’s not fun. It makes it way too much like school. To be able to use your park, you have a bigger facility, you have more shade. They can get there energy out, that the parents don’t say why my child didn’t want to go
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sleep tonight. But I mean just to be able to use the park. Councilman Snyder said so you would like to use the outside pavilion part? Ms. Myers said yeah, we would like to have access if possible to the inside. When we prepare their lunches. To have a place, we had a little cubby hole last year, we made it work. But to have a little bigger space. I haven’t seen the inside of the pavilion but I know from what Mrs. Sterner explained to me, it’s pretty big. So that would help with more organization and to do more special lunches. If it’s raining, they need to fit inside the pavilion. Councilman Snyder said and the restrooms. Reverend Mentzer said and a refrigerator to keep their lunches and bottles in. Also a place to store their equipment, we have a lot of balls and equipment, things like that. Councilman Manns said collecting garbage would go to our maintenance guy. Mr. Shearer said they could probably take care of that themselves. They’re going to need someplace to store their equipment, give them access to the center shed there, which is where we keep usually what Gail keeps supplies in there, extra supplies are kept in that shed. They can pretty much take care of that themselves, the dumpster is right there. Ms. Myers said that is one thing that is nice about the age of our staff. They’re all willing to pitch in. We rotated the chores each week. This person is in charge of the trash this week, this person is in charge of checking the campers in and out. We have assigned duties. With the bathrooms, we have no problem cleaning the bathroom, doing the trash, all that kind of stuff. The kids help us out, we make games out of who can pick up the most garbage it its really messy. They get a prize. So we kept the park up at Dallastown very clean, not only the staff but the campers as well. Councilman Noll asked so do they report everyday to the church? Ms. Myers said they’ll report to the park. Solicitor Solymos asked the group, do you have a separate corporate entity, or are you under the umbrella of the church? Reverend Mentzer said yes, they are under the church. Solicitor Solymos said so its church affiliated, the name is just to set it apart, it’s your church. Reverend Mentzer said yes. Solicitor Solymos asked it is opened to only your parishioners? Reverend Menter said absolutely not, if we have four to five kids there that are ours. I’d be surprised. Solicitor Solymos asked from where do, have you found, where do the kids come from, the Dallastown Area or are they coming from Fawn Grove? Ms. Myers said mostly Dallastown and Red Lion, its pretty even mix. One year we did have someone from Delta that came down. But most of them, when we send out stuff to the schools, the past couple years we’ve sent out to Dallastown and Red Lion. Reverend Mentzer said two of the elementary schools in Red Lion. Ms. Myers said I think we did three or four last year. Reverend Mentzer said we have fliers for all the elementary schools so they like to divide them up for the classes. The church takes the expense. Solicitor Solymos asked do you have insurance coverage? Reverend Mentzer said we have a million dollar policy. I can get you a proof/certificate of insurance. Solicitor Solymos said if borough council is leaning that way that we use that as part of negotiations in a simple little agreement, make sure that is part of it. Think about it. Councilman Snyder asked when do you need to know? Reverend Mentzer said we have not said anything to Dallastown as to that we’re vacating their park. As far as their concerned, we are going to be there. Of course the sooner the better. Our publicity starts in March, getting the fliers in place and getting
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the information on it. Councilman Snyder asked so you think you can draw up a simple agreement because the one thing I’m thinking of, we would want some kind of indemnity agreement to hold us harmless. I mean for the most part, our park is opened to the public so you can come up there and use it anytime you wanted. But as soon as it gets into using the buildings, the restrooms that we rent out, that we have an agreement to rent them out. Then we take on a little bit more liability, which you are willing to sign an agreement that
he would draft up. I see no problem there. Solicitor Solymos said I think you would want to think about it and if they would want to move in March. I think at your March meeting, you can make a decision, yay or nay. Then we could work on the paperwork, the nuts and bolts. Reverend Mentzer said the nature of the understanding with Dallastown was since they abandoned the program, we received the park use for free. However we placed a portable restroom there, at their request for the summer. We are in a position to give financial assistance here. The borough is going to incur some kind of expense here. We are using the services. In terms of what we provide for the children, but also for keeping the kids off the streets, giving them something solid. Councilman Snyder said speaking for myself I think it’s a good program. I’d like to see it happen as long as we can work out the indemnity issues. I think my other issue, as long as we see it’s maintained, kept clean because it is rented out on the weekend. I don’t think. The secretary said I told Amy if Gail knows of something, I’m going t let her know. If she has something scheduled during the week, Amy said that’s when they’d plan a field trip or something special. That can be worked out. Councilman Snyder said for the most part it’s only rented on weekends. The only other issue, of course, I’d like our solicitor to make sure of so we don’t get into trouble. I mean I don’t personally see it being that much of a cost except once we go through the first year and see what we spend for toilet paper, minor costs like that. I mean at that point as long as. I don’t see a problem there. My next thought was going to making sure that this is not somehow construed as us, separation of church and state. That we’re not. I think Pete felt comfortable there. Solicitor Solymos said you answered my question, its open to everyone. Reverend Mentzer said absolutely. Every child in school, K through sixth. Solicitor Solymos said somebody has to sponsor these activities. So it doesn’t trouble me as long as it’s opened to all children. You’re going to have enough trouble, you’re going to have fifty kids running around there. Then you’re going to have ten or twenty standing around that haven’t joined, look at all other kids.They’re going to want to be involved. But that’ll be something you’ll have to figure out. Ms. Myers said we don’t turn anyone away. We don’t have a cut off date for enrollment. The only time we had a cut off date last year is when they enrolled by a certain time, they got a free T-shirt. That has SADC on it or whatever. That was included in the registration. We basically wanted to know, so we had time to order them for our first field trip. Even after that, there were children that did sign up. We had extra shirts that we gave them, whatever shirts we had left. So we don’t have a cut off. We had people sign up in the middle of July. Councilman Snyder said as long s you are comfortable knowing that’s an open park. So if the borough kids come there and are starting to use the basketball court or something, they just happen to mosey on up.
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You want to make sure that you have someway to identify your kids. So you don’t have other kids that aren’t part of it, getting that free hot dog. Ms. Myers said Dallastown is the same way, the park was still open. We know who the kids are, we have check ins, we have all that kind of stuff. We make sure the ones that pay for are the ones that get it. We’ve worked out the bugs over the last couple of years with the program. Councilman Snyder said my last question to Pete, if cause I’d like to keep it at not cost, if possible or low, low as possible cost until we see what the first year is. I can’t see other than toilet paper, a little extra water or electric. Councilman Allar said you can put wording in there; you will be reimbursed as necessary. Councilman Snyder said yeah. My only other concern then, we’re not held in, I mean if we say reimbursement of costs. we’re not locked into saying anything other organization ca come in and say now we want to use it, every night of the week and we want the same deal, whatever. Solicitor Solymos said well, another organization could ask that, they probably would want the same consideration but I think we would deal with that as it comes, in my opinion. I just don’t see that rearing its head here. Somewhere else maybe. But it could happen. Reverend Mentzer said we’d be glad to provide all that, paper supplies, care for the dumpster. There are services we will be the largest used in those things. Don’t hesitate to ask us along the way. Councilman Allar asked if there are any funds coming into this program from some place else, are there churches? Reverend Mentzer said only tuition, tuition based, totally tuition based. Councilman Allar asked if there is going to be religious training there? Reverend Mentzer said we have not been specifically religious in our training except to call for moral accountability which is to say the community park, to include do unto others as you would have them to unto you, which that is taught in our schools. Not to quote the Bible. Councilman Allar asked you have like a schedule of events,activities, to bring to us? Ms. Myers said I think I have some. I know I have copies of what we’ve been doing. I can make up a calendar. Councilman Allar said so we know what is happening when. Councilman Noll said if it’s a question of separation of church and state, can we charge them just a nominal fee and then they’d be like anyone who rents the park. A hundred bucks to rent that park for the summer,maybe something like that, whatever. Solicitor Solymos said that is one way to resolve it. I’d like to see the agreement and they’d have to sign the agreement to say that the camp is open to everyone, all children between K and sixth regardless of race, color or creed. Reverend Mentzer said I can assure you, that’s the case. Solicitor Solymos said I’m sure it is. Councilman Snyder said you have to understand, we’re trying to make it work and at the same point we know what Hanover just went through because they had a ten commandment statue at the park. Solicitor Solymos said I really don’t see it but anything can happen. Reverend Mentzer said we don’t want to take anymore of your time but we’d be glad to answer anymore of your questions. We’ll get that calendar, there was a time we kept a calendar for the whole year. Ms. Myers said I can bring that once I have it ready. Solicitor Solymos said I think what council should do once they have excused themselves, after you’ve done your regular reporting, discuss it. The only thing as an outsider looking from the park standpoint, there are a lot of legal things but we can deal
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with that. Will your park accommodate that use when you weigh it to, compare it to the use that’s already being made of the park? Will that be burden on the people that are already using it? These are the kinds of questions you want to ask yourself. Do you have the space, do you have the usage? Councilman Snyder said I was just going to say, I see a consensus of council here. I see three heads going. Councilman Allar said I think it’s underutilized now. Councilman Noll said and you have people there protecting and watching over them. Councilman Snyder said okay then from what I heard and what I’m seeing from council, I think we can have a motion to have our solicitor start drafting an agreement for the March meeting. Ms. Myers asked when the meeting is? The secretary said March 4th at 7PM. Councilman Snyder asked do we have contact information? Ms. Myers said on the back of that sheet, my phone number and my email address is there. Councilman Snyder said cause what we can do Pete, if you have that done by the last week of February. Solicitor Solymos said I’ll give it to you a week ahead of time, someone can take a look over it. I just have one phone call to be made and that is to our carrier. Ask them, do they see any potential problems from the liability standpoint that they’re concerned about even though we’re going to draft this indemnified at all costs.
The secretary asked so are you calling them or am I calling them? Solicitor Solymos said I think you guys can call them. Councilman Snyder said and if you can have that agreement to me by the 25th. And then we can see that they get it ahead of time. If there are any problems before the March meeting, you can bring that to our attention at the March meeting, then we can finalize it. Solicitor Solymos said it’s going to be, the agreement would be between the Bethlehem United Methodist Church and Yoe Borough. They’ll be
some where as’s, explain what’s going on and the terms of the agreement. Councilman Snyder said yeah, and just provide the copy of insurance that you have and all that kind of stuff. Councilman Allar asked there’s a certain kind of insurance coverage. Reverend Mentzer said it covers any program that is operated under the umbrella, it covers day care, preschool, youth group trips down to Jamaica. Councilman Snyder asked do I have a motion for the solicitor that agreement. Solicitor Solymos said I think you have first the motion that would authorize the entry into the agreement and then I’ll just do it. That’s the way it should be, the motion authorizing us to enter into the agreement with Bethlehem United Methodist Church with regards to the use of the park. A motion was made by Councilman Howett to authorize entry into an agreement with Bethlehem United Methodist Church with regards to the use of the park. The motion was seonded by Councilman Noll. All in favor. Reverend Mentzer said we’re grateful for your time and sorry if we took too long. Councilman Snyder said no, don’t worry about that. Reverend Mentzer said we’ll get her document and I’ll get my document to Mrs. Sterner.
Councilman Snyder said next we have the Dallastown Cougars. My name is Mike Calaman of the Dallastown Cougars. I think Mike Noll talked to you Sandy. The secretary said yes, he did. Pretty much we’re asking to continue our relationship with the borough, with the ball field facilities. I have two copies of a letter, he asked that one copy be signed, if you agree. The secretary said that’s fine and I’ll be sending him one too
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from us. Mr. Calaman said pretty much last year, we painted the dugouts, did some filling in and grading, cleaned up around. We plan on doing that again, we may add diamond-tec, if its okay, depending on we may have other filed that need it more. Some of them have too much diamond-tec. We put sand on so they have draining. We have a problem with draining. I think he talked to you about sharing the cost of the jiffy johns. The secretary said no, you pay the cost of the jiffy johns. Mr. Calaman said he has in here to split the cost. I wasn’t sure about that. The secretary said from April until your program ends. Mr. Calaman said from March 31 to July 26. The secretary said then what happened last year, I had Knapers send the bill right to the Cougars and they paid it. April, May, June and July, you usually paid for it. The only thing that may happen, we may be changing the company that we have for the jiffy johns. But I will let them know that they need to bill them. I have Mike’s phone number so. But it is, that you pay the cost, its usually around sixty some dollars a month. The past two to three years, its been that way. Mr. Calaman asked are there any suggestions of anything else that needs to be taken care of. The field, the workday is the last Saturday of March. I don’t know if there’s anything else other than we normally do. The secretary said that’s Dana, Mike.He is our maintenance man. The secretary said that fall baseball came in after the Cougars and they paid the bill for the jiffy john. So the rental was paid last year by two organizations. The fall baseball came in after you then they picked up the bill. I stop the bill with you in July, then the next group comes in, fall baseball. Mr. Calaman said actually I am involved with fall baseball. I don’t know if its going to happen this year. The secretary said I talk to Sue. Mr. Calaman said yes, Sue Luman. The secretary said yes, she’s the one, the one that always calls me about that. Is that still associated with the Cougars? Mr. Calaman said right now its not but they’re talking about bringing it back in. That organization is smaller. The secretary said then you may have to come back and ask us again. Mr. Calaman said if that happens before then, we would just keep going on. The secretary said right. because it usually goes from the beginning of April to the end of October. Its usually paid by you for so long, and then fall baseball for so long. Mr. Calaman said worse case. The secretary said then you would be paying for it the whole time. Councilman Snyder said probably the only other thing I think that needs to be addressed is there’s a parking issue as far as where people park when they come to games and encroaching on private property. And I don’t know, my thinking would be to take some wooden states, rope. I mean I guess Dana could probably get you with the property owner or Dana could tell you where the edge of the park is and just stake that out so. make sure its staked out and then you enforce the parking if you see someone trying to get a crossed it. Mr. Shearer said actually there’s something I’m going to address on that under the maintenance report, to do, to try to help define the line there. Councilman Snyder said because its one big field there, you really don’t’ know where the property line is. I mean its an understandable problem, but at the same point we need to try to address it. Mr. Shearer said last year what we did was took white survey flags and put out across there actually back on our property as a buffer so that way, they would not go past that point.
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Councilman Snyder said yeah, but that didn’t work cause they were driving through the flags and still going out Ron Crull’s driveway to get out unto Yoe Drive. Cause there’s 30 to 40 foot of just open grass before you get to his driveway, that’s a short out to Yoe Drive. You know ho parents at the games can be. So my suggestion would be to just run stakes and rope the whole way down to the line and then they have to physically do something. Mr. Shearer said I want to plant stuff. Councilman Snyder said that’s the only thing I know of. The secretary said I already talked to Mike and he said the certificate of insurance would come like it did last year. Its something you may want to mention to your board, to when you get together with your coaches to let them know, between the two of you, you can set something up. Councilman Snyder asked what are the dates again? Mr. Calaman said it will be March 31 to July 26. Councilman Snyder asked and what are the times? Mr. Calaman said that’ll be weeknights from 5PM until dusk, Saturdays 9AM to dusk and Sundays from 1PM until dusk for practices and make up games. Mr. Shearer asked are you using that as two fields? I know there were some years they did use it for two. Mr. Calaman said just one field. Mr. Shearer said just one filed because that was another area that we ran into parking problems. Mr. Calaman said yeah, you were almost doubling the number. Mr. Sheareer said we had alto of parking over here on Maple Street, where it cause some conflict with the neighbors over there. Mr. Calaman said the bigger fields are what we need. That was probably T ball. Mr. Shearer said they put them on the other end. Mr. Calaman said they won’t do that. A motion was made by Councilman Howett to enter into the agreement for the 2008 season with the Dallastown Cougars. The motion was seconded by Councilman Manns. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried. Mr. Calaman said thank you. Councilman Snyder said thanks for coming.
Councilman Snyder asked if there were any other visitors that would like to be recognized.
Cottrell Solicitor Solymos said lets go over litigation first. We don’t need to
Matter go into executive session and it can be part of the minutes. On the
Cottrell matter, first item of the Cottrell matter is the lawsuit that Mr.
Cottrell has impeded against us. As you know we had the whole horror
show with our insurance carrier attorneys and now we have a new
attorney. We have now had two conference calls with the plaintiff’s
attorney to discuss what the plaintiff wants. There was an itemation,
it wasn’t a formal demand letter, it was an itemation that they want
$37,000.00. And the carrier said that, that wasn’t happening anytime
soon. You can paraphrase that in the minutes. Then we had a meeting
to discuss how best to try and resolve the matter. And it was discussed
Solicitor’s Repot(cont.) Page 10
that, they might want to get involved in non-binding mediation. And a
mediator was proposed, and all the lawyers are agreeable, that’s the
former judge Blakey. He does a lot of this mediation. That’s if the carrier
will be footing the expense of getting the mediator in. The medication
involves several steps. The first step is to get everybody in the room, talk
to them, tell them what this about. And then they talk to one side alone,
talk to another said alone, get everybody back in, back and forth. And try
to recommend a settlement that everyone can live with. That’s up to the
carrier. That’s where we are and that was last Thursday. We have not
gotten a call back from Mr. Cottrell’s lawyer as to whether or not, as to
if Cottrell would go along with mediation. Other than that, he has to
litigate. We were fairly firm with the attorney that litigation would be
time consuming. We brought up some of our legal concerns. I don’t
want to discuss specifically here with his attorney. So that’s the status of
that. There’s an another item that involves the current or proposed use of tract of land. It is my understanding that you have what appears to be a
solid applicant for this tract of land. The issue is whether or not this
applicant needs another special exception or whether he can ride on the
coattails of what was granted originally to Mr. Cottrell which was an
essentially, a used car lot with a minor maintenance and upkeep. Now this
gentleman wants to come in, wants to sell used vehicles but he also wants
to have an inspection station. So this is going to be repair, inspection,
things of that nature. I suggested the new zoning officer ought to take a
look at the history, the background of this. We’re trying to kick up the
transcript of the first zoning hearing, the findings, the facts so he knows
what was originally granted and then he can decide as to whether or not,
you’re going to call on this guy to go back and get another special
exception or you’re going to just have a permit to lock him in as to the
use, get his name and address and just issue the permit on the theory
that the uses are so similar, that its not really a change. My feeling
professionally, a used car lot, with minor repair on the side is quite
different than an inspection station. Councilman Manns said they’re
hanging a sign up, he was hanging it today. Solicitor Solymos said
I don’t know if he’s gotten the permits. That’s interesting, how he is
doing that. Be that as it may, its my understanding that he has applied
for a special exception. The secretary said the BCO told him, he can
open business. Solicitor Solymos asked why would the BCO tell him
that, the BCO is not the zoning officer. Councilman Snyder said it may
be from the UCC, that he told him that. The secretary said I think there
is a problem here. Councilman Snyder said he had no right to tell him
that. The secretary said he told him that, I was here. He also told him
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 11
that he can add his name to the use and occupancy permit because
he talked to Jason Stevens about it. I did not say a word. Solicitor
Solymos asked who was this? The secretary said John Lefever was
representing Code Administrators but he was reporting on behalf
of Jason Stevens after he came back in response, in response to
repairs that are needed there with the heating not meeting code
right now. Then an application was filled out and given to Dan
because it goes to him first. Councilman Manns asked so the BCO
gave him consent? The secretary said yes, he told him that there
should be no problem why he shouldn’t be able to open up.
Councilman Manns asked Lefever? The secretary said yes. Solicitor
Solymos said he must be an expert on our zoning ordinance. Do you have
his phone number, get it to me. Councilman Noll said the only thing he
should be able to do is make a determination of if it’s the same use for it.
The secretary said I’m saying that comment was made. Solicitor Solymos
said he is just determining if its up to code, whether that use is. He can
certify if the McDonalds is up to code but he/they can’t put a McDonald’s
in a residential zone. The secretary said the use and occupancy certificate
has a notation on the bottom. Councilman Snyder said there was a
complaint lodged against the property. I don’t know by whom but
somebody lodged a complaint. This codes guy went down there and did
an inspection. This was simultaneously as to when the gentleman down
there tried to get a letter from us that he was in compliance with zoning,
so he could send up to the state to get his state license. The secretary said
for the used car lot, he already has licenses for inspection and emissions.
Councilman Snyder said so I held him off. They ended up coming here
that same day. That gentleman from Codes ended up finding different
violations that he needed to bring the building up to code for. We talked
about that. When he found out that Jason Stevens had a pre existing
occupancy permit. The secretary said use and occupancy permit.
Councilman Snyder said he pulled the citation back to the gentleman
that he issued it to and said well wait a minute I’ll go back and talk to
Jason. At that point, they must have talked and said well, he can ride on
the coattails of my inspection and therefore for the UCC. For the UCC,
he can even thought is a change of occupant. Councilman Manns said
then that should have become a violation. The secretary said then
he said eventually he could add his name onto the use and occupancy
permit. The permit is issued to Tim Cottrell not the person that is renting
the building now. Solicitor Solymos said he needs to get a use and
occupancy permit for zoning in my opinion. Councilman Snyder said
at the same point as soon as he issues that, we wouldn’t sign off on
the use because for him to sign his name on the bottom. The secretary
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 12
he didn’t say about a new use and occupancy, he said to add his name to
the one issued in October 2007. I didn’t hear anything about a new one.
Solicitor Solymos asked has it been done yet. The secretary said not that
I know of. Solicitor Solymos said you have thirty days to act on a
permit. The secretary said I think you need to get together with Mr. Shaw
and Jason Stevens. John Lefever is the middle man between Jason
Stevens and this guy and find out what is going on. Councilman Noll
said it should be the zoning officer, all the inspection officer should do is
the inspection and report to the zoning officer. Councilman Snyder said
that’s why Dan is trying to bring us up to speed. Councilman Noll said
and that’s where the zoning officer represents Yoe Borough, he should
be the one and that states that in the code. Councilman Manns said
my question is, we’re riding on the coattails of, you can add an additional
name on the use of the permit. Solicitor Solymos said the practical
solution what I’m asking on my side to this, if you have a legitimate
person in there who has already apparently been willing to work with
people and has worked with a number of people, do we want to just
lock him in and make sure he’s got the permits he needs rather than go
through the whole thing especially now since he has a vested right.
You gave me a permit. I relied on it. I’ve just spent $5000.00 on it
now you’re telling me I’ve got to get a special exception. And if I go to
the zoning hearing board, they won’t give it to me. Understanding that
a special exception is neither special or an exception. It’s a permitted
use. As long as he meets the criteria for that use except that our
ordinance has no criteria for that use. So its strictly a health, safety
and welfare issue which is the burden is on the municipality. After the
guy comes forward and says what protective things he’s going to do. The
burden is on the municipality. The lot is big enough to accommodate
something like that, isn’t it? Councilman Snyder said it depends on the
size of the business, I would think. Solicitor Solymos said I think we
need to meet with the zoning officer. Councilman Manns said the sign,
they hung a sign and they have a flashing sign that says inspections are
available. The secretary said the first sign said sales and service. He
wanted to have a used care lot that’s when he brought the paper work up
here and wanted the borough to write a letter saying it was okay. And
Sam said absolutely not. So there’s a piece of tape over the sales
part, it just says service now. Solicitor Solymos asked but is service,
a special exception or is that matter of right to have a service station
in that zone. Or do you need a special exception too? I don’t know if we
need to know that today but we need to do something quick. Councilman
Allar said you said sales and repairs, and service, where is the line
between? Solicitor Solymos said I’m not sure I know where the line is
but an inspection station is a little more sophisticated outfit than some
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 13
minor repairs. Understand what Cottrell said anyway, Cottrell is going
to sell used cars. Councilman Allar said well I’m going to take the line for
repairs for damaged automobiles, where’s the line between, return the
vehicle you’re going to sell versus of having a half of a dozen or a
dozen of junk vehicles there. Remember before what we went through.
Solicitor Solymos said absolutely. And that’s a completely different use.
Councilman Allar said but how is it defined and if its going to be said this
is now a junk dealer? He’s going to say no. I’m repairing these to sell.
Sales and repair. Solicitor Solymos said that’s the beauty of this, okay.
If you have someone who’s legit, you’re going to give him an occupancy
permit that specifically defines what he does and you can put in that
occupancy permit that his is not to be a junk yard, or salvage of
vehicles this is for sales of used vehicles and inspection. Councilman
Allar said that’s in the eye of the beholder. Solicitor Solymos said of
course it’s always in the eye of the beholder. Councilman Snyder said
its his black vehicle. Councilman Allar said you put down that you can’t
have more than six junk cars. Councilman Snyder said this was my whole
content, about the special exception that was granted to Cottrell. He said
he only wanted to sell vehicles. Service was in the future. Solicitor
Solymos said exactly. Councilman Snyder said that was the whole thing,
he never got the special exception for service. It wasn’t until we got
that order from the judge that you’re going to issue him. Solicitor
Solymos said we got an order from the judge because nobody did
anything up there in Harrisburg. Councilman Snyder said so we got
an order from a judge, that said you’re going to issue this guy a use
certificate for sales and service. Okay so. Councilman Noll said so
I understand, it’s the same owner, but a different occupant that has
come in and is renting and using that property. Solicitor Solymos said
Cottrell owns it, but this guy is occupying it. I sense from what I’ve
heard he is legit, and I think you lock him in. Councilman Noll said
Jason is right only in that it is the same as far as his side of the law
is concerned. It is the same use, S-1, use for repairs and far as he
is concerned but anytime that occupant changes or that operator, there
should be a brand new use and occupancy. Solicitor Solymos said
absolutely. You want a clarification. Councilman Noll said yeah.
Councilman Snyder said and that’s where this new guy is saying, he’ll
just add his name on to it. Councilman Manns said there are
regulations for inspection regulated by the Commonwealth for
specific kinds of equipment, kinds of test, requirements, its just not
a service station. Solicitor Solymos asked where is this guy from?
The secretary said from what I’m understanding it’s a husband and
wife type of thing and the wife has the monies. He’s already rented
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 14
it from Cottrell for so long. He’s already bought an emissions machine.
Councilman Snyder said he already has like $14,000.00 into this.
Solicitor Solymos said I think you can lock it in , there’s no damage to the
occupant. That’s one way of doing it. But my recommendation is that we
have to get together with somebody, you’re the most intimately familiar
with Mr. Cottrell, so my suggestion is we meet with John Lefever and at
least with the zoning officer and find out what’s going on. So that’s what
we’ll do. Councilman Snyder said he’d give John Lefever a call. The
secretary said that John Lefever went and talked to Jason Stevens.
Councilman Snyder said I just want to see what though, what they’re
talking about when they say add their name on. My personal opinion is.
The secretary said it was said for later on down the road, I haven’t seen the paperwork, that was the comment that was made. Councilman
Snyder said my personal feeling why Dan got involved is he knows it
needs a new certificate which has a zoning sign off and Dan Shaw
doesn’t want to sing off on it without knowing what is going on.
That make sense. And then Lefever will do, since he is the one who
inspected it, he’ll just add his name to the inspection that Jason
Stevens did. Because what he found out it was , it’s the same
class. This guy went through for repairs, Jason originally did
it for service and they’re saying there’s a fine line when it
comes to UCC, there is not distinction between service and
repair. Solicitor Solymos said if you’re going to call him,
I’ll hold off.
Chronister Solicitor Solymos said with future litigation involving the
Matter Chronister matter. The one who is the most intimately
involved with this, is Tom. And Tom is meeting with me
at 4 o’clock on Friday to go over that complaint, review
that complaint. And make sure I have the timelines and the
dates right. Then we’re going to have it served. I have held off
going to the press with anything cause I want to give them a package
ahead of time. Solicitor Solymos said lets go into executive
Executive Session at 8:03PM
A motion was made by Councilman Allar to enter into executive
session at 8:03PM. The motion was seconded by Councilman
Howett. All in favor.
Reconvening into the Regular Meeting at 8:14PM Page 15
Councilman Snyder said we are reconvening into the regular meeting.
Let the record reflect that we discussed legal matters and the outcome
of the executive session was that the solicitor will go head and fill
out the appropriate paperwork after the said meeting on the
Chronister matter. And then do I have a motion from council
Letter to join along with Dallastown Borough in sending a letter to discuss issues
about issues concerning the local district justice. A motion was made by Councilman
local district Noll for Yoe Borough to join along with Dallastown Borough in
justice sending a letter to discuss issues concerning the local district justice.
The motion was seconded by Councilman Manns. All in favor.
Councilman Snyder said motion carried.
Intermuni- Solicitor Solymos said the other thing was the intermunicipal cooperation
cipal agreement and so forth. You got my report on that. I haven’t heard
Agreement anything new on that. As soon as I get it, we’ll fill you in on it.
Councilman Snyder asked any updates Tom? Councilman Allar said
the revised agreement, I guess it went in the packet with the minutes.
I don’t see anything different in there other than the one I went over
last month. Councilman Snyder said the only reason, I’m asking
about an update, if you recall last month, we were suppose to have
an ordinance drafted for this month and of course. Solicitor Solymos
said authorizing us to enter into that agreement. Councilman Allar
said I talked to Pete but I also talked to Stew. And I put Stew unto
Mike. Councilman Snyder said so let the record reflect as of yet in
order to keep our costs down, we did not direct our solicitor to
draft that ordinance. We are working on a temp ordinance from Mike
Craley from Red Lion Borough and then that’s forwarded on to our
solicitor for his review. Councilman Allar said you have to have the
ordinance before you sign the agreement. Councilman Snyder said
correct. Solicitor Solymos said absolutely. Councilman Snyder said so
that’s where we are on that, why its like that. Councilman Allar said
there will probably be a meeting sometime in February with the other
municipalities. Councilman Snyder said so again I don’t think we
need another motion but if that ordinance is really but next month
and you can get it advertised in time. There is a consensus. Solicitor
Solymos said my marching orders were to let Mike do the laboring,
I read it, substitute Yoe for Red Lion. So that’s basically it.
Experience Councilman Snyder said the only other thing that I had under
Works Solicitor for unfinished business was he was suppose to be looking
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 16
over any extended or amended agreement by Experience Works that
they send in. You have not received any? Solicitor Solymos said
I have not received any abut I talked several times with Tom on this
situation. And Tom has obviously talked to those people at length.
And feels in talking to them that he would get them to acknowledge
at least in a letter from what really we’re going to be obligated to. That
this somehow some kind of standard form that they use but it won’t apply
to our situation and all I need is some brief confirmation of that,
doesn’t have to be sophisticated. But I need some confirmation of that.
Then I don’t have a problem with you folks going forward with it.
I think what Tom has to do is go over where he’s been with it and let
you folks know what’s going on there and then as soon as I see something
I think it will be fine to go ahead and bring this gentleman in. Give it a
try. Councilman Allar said to bring you up to date, last month we talked
about having them go back and amend the agreement. The problem is
there are some many different layers, when you have regional, district,
Experience Works. You have the Department of Aging, Department
of Labor and so forth. Its not that here at the local level, the people
that were here, don’t want to change it. Its just that it would take about
five years to change it. I went over the points that Pete had. What we
did, Sam had read your memo in the minutes and it looks like there’s
five points here. The first one, and I just want to clarify what my
discussion was with Experience Works. Individual, keeping a detailed
record of the nature of the work performed. There’s two thoughts here,
about the training program is acceptable. As it turns out we actually do
have a training program that is acceptable right now. Before I saw their
agreement, I work up an outline on how this thing would function. It was
with the minutes and everyone had seen that. We had a meeting, Bruce
you were there, Barry was there and Experience Works. We went over
that agreement, no one added or submitted anything to that. So I asked
them today, is that acceptable? They said yeah. Prior to agreeing to that,
their letter, that we already have it, or even that detail. I can add a couple
things about goals, objectives and different things like that now. Now
the business about keeping detailed records. This is the only thing that
we have to be careful of there’s about four or five forms. You need to
account for this guy’s hours. No one up the line and I know this because
I use to work of offices with audits, the whole thing you need to make sure
of is, that Experience Works is not hiring ghosts. That these people exist,
they go out there and do the work. We are the double check. We certify
all that stuff back so this is a legitimate operation. This is no different
than the CDBG, where we certify the work was done so they can pay
the bill. Again is you looked into the borough part of the CDBG, you
probably wouldn’t sign it. The only different things, they hold you
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 17
accountable for. Second point, there is no provision agreement
where by the person referred to for training has been checked on by
Experience Works. Actually in this case, he has been checked out,
he was checked out by the previous host agency. Plus the fact,
I think John could go to the police and get a police check for free,
so. I’m not sure why we’re hung up on that issue. Third point,
we should check with our Workmen’s Comp carrier and other
personal liability carrier. In the agreement, the host assigned
talks about a calendar handbook. In the handbook, it clearly
states that Experience Works will provide the worker’s
comp. So that’s not anything. Fourth point, apparently
obligated to provide certain health care and screening. When this
was brought up, the wording here obligated to provide certain
health care and screening. The agreement actually doesn’t say
anything about an obligation. It says assists. When we talked about
it last month, Eugene said it had to do with special CNA training
with tuberculosis tests, and things like that. The bottom line is
Experience Works will pay for anything that has to do with health
care. So I can add that to the agreement. The last point is the
work station. I think, it’s a difference of opinion of whether he
should work here. I’m going to have to know that so I can add it
to the agreement, if he should work here or work at his home.
Personally working at his home seems to be easiest. I have no problem
either way, if he works here, it means giving him a key, he is now
has access to the building 24/7. I think I can get a computer out of
Experience Works. How does the group want to do this? Councilman
Sndyer said I mean, I still have a problem with what they’re going to,
I mean this is why I’d like to get all this stuff in the agreement. It
says here, we have to allow him to attend meetings and training that is
required or provided by Experience Works. If he is working at home
and they say Tuesday we have a training class. Then on the next page
it says if the participant’s duties include driving and we have to allow
him to go to this host agency. Then he has to be listed on our
carrier’s insurance with at least a $100,000 per person, $300,000 for
bodily injury or accident. Councilman Allar said his duties don’t
require driving. Councilman Snyder said it does when it says we have to
make him available to go to their training sessions. Councilman Allar said
that has nothing to do with us. Councilman Snyder said we have to make
him available to go to training. Councilman Allar said what that means
is we don’t, try to picture this in an another situation like a nursing home.
All that means is that they’re not going to give him any duties for
that job for that day. So if he is not working on grants for that particular
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 18
day, that’s all that mans. We don’t account for his hours for that day.
I do not certify his hours for that day. I think we’re reading too much
into this. Solicitor Solymos said it’s not unlike the difference between
service and an inspection. You can go anyway you want with this stuff.
but if they’re will to do, to talk with us. Councilman Snyder said that’s
all we asked in the first place. What they stood there and told us, I
liked. I really did. It was trying to get something like that into writing.
Councilman Allar said I think I can get that in writing. Councilman
Snyder said the man stood there and said by us having him do something
is training, that qualifies as training, what I’m afraid of though is, you
sat there and said, he has his own computer. He can do his own
computer work. Last week or last month, they stood there and said well,
he needs a computer wherever he’s at. If he’s here, he needs one here.
And then this thing here says we have to supply the equipment. So if
his computer goes bad at home. Councilman Allar said are you happy if
you get Experience Works to supply it? Councilman Snyder said that’s what I’m saying all these little issues. Solicitor Solymos said if that’s
covered, that’s fine. Councilman Snyder said that’s what I’m saying,
what they told us. Councilman Allar said they told us, its covered.
Councilman Snyder said yet, what they said to us. Councilman Manns said
get it in writing what they said, part and parcel for their job description.
Councilman Snyder said so we don’t have to worry about insurance.
Councilman Allar said we are going to get this thing to a twenty page
document. I’m telling you, there’s a risk in everything that we do. There’s
a risk in that church organization using the park. I don’t care if you have
a million dollar policy or if you have a contract, there’s a risk. A very
small risk. If a counselor abuses a kid, we get dragged in, There’s a risk.
There’s a risk in everything. There’s a risk of walking away from 80 free
hours of help. Now here’s an organization that’s been in existence for
forty three years almost half a century. It covers the county. They train
50,000 people a year across the states. Solicitor Solymos said I had no
problem with that. Councilman Allar said you’re asking to change an
agreement that works every place else. Solicitor Solymos said that
agreement was 180 degrees from what they were telling us. I’m as
a lawyer, get suspicious, but I think you have a resolution, so do it.
See what it is and at a point I can live with it. Councilman Allar said
I called Gettysburg and I went over this agreement and they said you
know, you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill. Take the hours
and run. There’s one thing, you have to prove your hours. But no one
is going to check the wording on a training book. You’re training
program, I like this one but I don’t like this one. It’s not going to
happen. The hours, yes. But the rest of it. This has been here for 43
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 19
years. Municipalities with staffs and big populations, there are
senior centers, that are volunteers. They have full time people and
they’re putting this program together. They’re not dotting I’s and
crossing T’s, like we’re talking about. Solicitor Solymos said,
gentlemen, part of my advice is cover my derriere, okay, as a
practical matter. Because if something happens and somebody says
what Pete says, why didn’t you explain that. Realistically, I’ve
talked to Tom, and I don’t know these people, I’ve just read a
document. That’s fine, I talked to Tom. I’ve gone over my
concerns. Tom has addressed those and has said how he’s going
to address them. They come back fine, then go ahead and do it.
Councilman Allar said all I’m trying to do is to get money into
the borough. We raised the taxes, we’re in a financial crisis here.
Someone has to get an idea, there’s no risk to it, just get it down
on paper. Councilman Noll asked is it just as easy to get Tom to
type up a letter and getting them to sign it. Councilman Allar said
what I’d like to do is, I will get something together and run it by
you and you. And the I’d like a meeting, you don’t have to be there
Pete, but perhaps you want to be there because of raising these
issues. And a final hammering out before our next meeting. Because
otherwise we’ll bring up more things, I mean we’ll go for another
round. Councilman Snyder said you don’t need to invite me. Tom,
remember, for the most part I didn’t like the agility agreement for
the same reason. Councilman Allar said I didn’t like it because they
didn’t talk to us. Councilman Snyder said what they say, what’s on
the paper. I didn’t like the agility agreement. Was the agility agreement
good? Yes it was. Did we make out with the roadwork? Yes we did.
Did I like taking the responsibility of PENN DOT’s road and putting
us at the risk? No I did not. My personal opinion, and I’m telling you
what council decides to do, they can do, they can vote for this, I don’t care. I will vote no, I don’t like it. I don’t like it, if council wants to
do it, that’s fine. I don’t have a problem with it. Councilman Allar said
hear what you said, we made out well. If we would thrown that in the
trash we wouldn’t have made out well. Councilman Snyder said that’s right, its just me. It’s me Tom. That’s what I’m saying, I don’t have
a problem. Councilman Allar said I just don’t’ want us to sit around
at our next budget meeting in nine months, six months, whatever,
trying to make column A match column B. And then start talking a
tax increase again and then say its needed. This is eighty free hours
a month. Councilman Manns said the bottom line is there is a potential
revenue stream that we can look at. Councilman Allar said when you are
in negotiations, you want to make it bullet proof, you want to make it
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 20
acceptable. So every time, you throw a line in there, they’ve got to
to accept another line. We have to be somewhat flexible. Councilman
Snyder said the only thing that I can tell you, one thing I like about this
agreement was, you can get out of it at anytime. Cause I mean I’m
reading this and they say well they don’t guarantee who you get.
Councilman Allar said we’re about this close for them to get out of it,
further down the road. Solicitor Solymos said I’m sorry after talking
about what you’re going to do, I can live with that but this agreement
is nothing what we talked about before and I wouldn’t be doing my job
if I didn’t raise concerns. But they’re going to resolved those concerns.
I think that’s great. Councilman Allar said you’ve got to understand
we’re still signing this agreement. There’s no way we can change
this agreement. What I can do, if you look at the last section here, where
it does talk about an amendment. Can’t change this unless you know the
Secretary of Labor. Solicitor Solymos said amendments are fine. That’s
it, that’s what I got folks. Councilman Snyder asked anything else for
PENN DOT Mr. Shearer said just to bring up something, the alley there on Main
Response Street at the house there on E. Pennsylvania Avenue. I did talk to
To Sight PENN DOT and they came out and they looked at it. They never bothered
Distance to call me back, so I called them. And they said oh yeah, what we suggest
is that you send a letter to the property owner with the big cedar trees and
bushes and tell them they need to cut them. Cause it’s a sight problem.
And that they could be, the homeowner, the property owner, could be
liable if there is an accident there. So that was their answer to the sight
distance. And the stop sign issue, they said well that’s a private stop sign.
You should send a letter to the property owner and tell them they’re
responsible for maintaining it. And I asked them, what if they decide
they don’t want to maintain it. They said then the liability would probably
come back on you. So in other words, they don’t want anything to do with
the stop sign. They don’t want anything to do with the sight distance. They
don’t seem to be a lot of help at the moment. Councilman Snyder said I
don’t have a problem to continue to keep up with the stop sign. Let’s face
it, the property is the railroad because I don’t think that property on the
corner, ever quick claimed that. So we’re up for that. As for the
sight distance. Solicitor Solymos said sight distance, you’ve got to, you
can get into litigation with one of those situations, folks. Folks, you may
remember, years ago, maybe ten years now, on lets see, I guess its
North George St. extended, where it cuts back to the new Central
High School there, a T intersection. Some little kid blew the
intersection and blew the stop sign and claimed they couldn’t see it
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 21
because of the bushes that were growing up in the area. And they went
out and hit somebody. A Hazmat truck got involved in the wreck. Two
people were killed in that one. And the municipality got sued on that one.
They have a duty to keep those sight views open, especially if there
hanging over our right of way. You can ask them to trim them, that’s something you can think about. Councilman Manns said, so to maintain
the stop sign, it’s the responsibility of the property owner. Solicitor
Solymos said its private property, they’re going to argue, you maintained
the stop sign now, you’re responsible. Couniclman Noll asked is that
vegetation within the PENN DOT right of way? Councilman Snyder said
that’s the problem Pete, our ordinance doesn’t address going back that far
on someone’s property. I mean it’s not overhanging really the sidewalk to
the point its impeding. Literally its off the sidewalk. This is because
you’re coming up on that hard angle. They want it cut back even
further. Our ordinance doesn’t address it. Evidently the state ordinance,
state law does, but they don’t’ want to enforce it, they want us to
enforce it. How do we enforce a state law? Mr. Shearer said matter of
fact, their comment to me was, was that is would be easier for you because
you have more latitude than that. And I said looking at the Motor Vehicle
code, what you could do for sigh distance, like you would have more
lead way than we would by our ordinance. Solicitor Solymos said
basically all we have is an ordinance and may be going on some kind of
nuisance theory. And its not easy. Mr. Shearer said that’s pretty much it.
Councilman Snyder said so to enforce a sight triangle on a road, that’s not
a road because it’s a private drive. Solicitor Solymos said yeah.
Councilman Noll said it’s a sight distance on a private drive. Councilman
Allar said remember when the fire company put the stop light up,
there’s a sign up there that alerts you to stop light ahead and that was
overgrown and we trimmed the limb down. Mr. Shearer said the
signal ahead sign. Councilman Snyder said yeah. That’s because
we have a tree ordinance. Mr. Shearer said that sign would be out unto the
edge of the sidewalk, if it was impeded, then it would probably fall
under our ordinance because if it was covered it was lower than the
12 foot. Which is kind of what we ran into there last year, I kept, was on
Dick, I guess he did send them a letter. Cause actually last year I had to go
there and trim around the sign and its to the point again where you
know its encroaching on the sidewalk and probably up to our ordinance.
But I don’t know if cutting it back. cutting it back enough to satisfy
the ordinance, I don’t know if that would still satisfy the sight distance.
Councilman Snyder said cause our ordinance encroaches unto the
sidewalk. Mr. Shearer said right. Councilman Noll asked does it hurt
to send them a letter, list the discrepancies, the meeting with PENN DOT,
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 22
and in our opinion for sight distance, that should be cut back. Do the
wording and see what happens. That way we have something on record.
Solicitor Solymos said that is one way of doing it. Councilman Snyder
asked Dana, do you want to try and draft something since you spoke
with PENN DOT. Again we don’t have anything in writing to back up, it’s a phone conversation. Solicitor Solymos said but you can say
PENN DOT has expressed some concerns to you and we’re letting you
know, that’s true. Councilman Snyder said get your wording together
and maybe Sandy can type it up. Mr. Shearer said I even asked them to
call me when they were coming in to look at it, to go over it with them.
I never got a call back.
Cert. Of Solicitor Solymos gave the secretary the certificate of insurance from
Ins. Bethlehem United Methodist Church and asked the secretary to fax
him a copy.
Councilman Snyder asked anything else for the solicitor before he
leaves? Thanks for coming.
Plantings Mr. Shearer said like I said earlier, York County Conservation has
Seedlings a seedling sale coming up. And I’d probably keep it around
$100.00. If no one has any objections, there are a few plants
that I’d like to get. Some for around the building here to fill in
the beds. A couple of plants out in the back here. And see if we
can put some low shrubbery to try to help define the property
line, keeping them well on our property. So that way they can
see something physically there, they won’t be as apt to
drive over Ron and Connie’s property.
Heavy Rains Mr. Shearer said I did take pictures on Friday of the heavy rains.
Pictures There here, Tom has them. I will get copies for Jason also. The
two things, because of the heavy rain, I did want to take pictures.
Tom had expressed before about trying to record the flow and
stuff when it was happening. So Friday afternoon, I started up
at Carriage Crossing, and took pictures, all the way down through
to the church to try to record the flow. We are getting a lot of
sediment from upstream. While I was taking pictures I did have
chance to talk to a York Township commissioner who is in the
building trade and wanted to see the flow for himself. So I
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 23
don’t know, he must have been on his own sigh seeing expedition.
There are a few things as to the sediment into the stream. Actually
its coming in below the dams, its worse at the spot where its coming
from the Paddock. Also we have a lot of muddy water coming off the
Rexroth property unto the park. I know we talked about that before
with the flow of the water coming down through there. Because when
we paved, like I said before I should have put rolled curb along that
edge. To keep it back from the curb that was there, I could have
built it up more. We did have a flow across Joe Restuccia’s property,
coming down the bank behind Sam’s house. So there was a lot that
was missing the drain but it did flow down the street, that the drain
would have caught. So sometime this spring I’m going to try to
make that a project to see what we could do. Thinking about
buying asphalt one ton at a time, see if we can try to hold the cost
down. I can make a curb where I need it, there’s a couple of spots
that has curb where the flow is directed. At Boundary Avenue, I
see we’re getting some flow there at the properties there at
E. Pennsylvania Avenue and Clark Alley. I want to nip that in the
spring too. The one concern as far as the Rexroth property, like
I said I know we’ve always had water running off there, but because he’s
moving earth up there, we’re getting a lot of muddy water. And its going
down into our stormwater system. I’ve already have enough problems
with storm drainage now. So I guess I’m going to have to make contact
with Eric Jordan and see what we can do with that. Councilman Snyder
asked are you filing a complaint there on that? Mr. Shearer said yeah.
Councilman Allar said Sam, I got a couple of complaints from people
up there. I don’t know if it shows in these pictures or some other pictures
but their sediment control barriers, there are at least a half of a dozen
breaches. A lot of them, the barriers have been that way for two months.
Wind storms and so on, blow them down and nobody came back to
fix it. I think we need to make a complaint to the Conservation District.
Councilman Snyder said so its your recommendation then, for what
was discussed here with all this water, is a complaint needs to be filed
on the Rexroth property. Councilman Noll said its obvious that the
silt fence is already down. Councilman Snyder said a recommendation
for anything at the Paddock for upstream at this point? You don’t think there’s a violation there? Mr. Reichard said I can’t say without
going on site but I would say someone should go up and take a
look at the control and make sure its in place. I mean Eric Jordan’s
coming out, you can have him go to the Paddock and make sure
everything is complete and there’s no violation. Base on what I’ve
see, there is no sign of heavy material coming out to the pipe directly
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 24
into the basin. Councilman Snyder said Tom is concerned about the
extra silt build up. Mr. Reichard said I don’t know, I don’t know how
significant that is. What you look at in the pictures, you’ve four foot
of muddy water in that entire basin. That pipe is completely
submerged, the end wall is submerged, the rock gabions is under water.
To say that’s directly from that, I don’t have that ability. Sure there’s
sediment coming out of the pipe but to stand here and say that’s Equine
Meadows sediment. Councilman Allar said I know there’s a difference
in what comes down and what comes across Springwood. Mr. Reichard
said when we first talked, I was surprised the basin wasn’t affected cause
the pipe went to a manhole and just stopped. So that is the argument there,
we aren’t sure if it goes off the bank. Councilman Allar said again there’s
really nothing we can do except to document, at some point that whole
area will be dredged out. The sooner we have a fore bay that’s somewhat
effective that area is growing up with sediment. Mr. Reichard said I think
one of the basins is channeling itself. We need to look at the material
up there, you have rock, there’s a lot of debris. There’s probably a stream
bed near a basin. That’s the major problem. Looking at those pictures, the
water level is a foot or less in entering the spillway and there’s a good foot
and a half from looking at the island. Mr. Shearer said of the original
stream bed. Mr. Reichard said in the middle of the basin, that should be
under water. You’ve got an island, you can go out there and stand, and
not get your feet wet. If think you’re on the right course, you’ve put a
plan in place. York Township has had an application in
for stream restoration and that’s not going to be a set up and design
for stream beds like that, its going to try and help the base flow
conditions of a small stream that continues to eat at the channel.
If you get something heavy, its going to depend on the amount of
water you have. With that, I talked to Bob Miller and he is still
moving toward the application., DEP currently talked to him and
asked him to fill out the full blown Growing Greener application.
Councilman Allar asked are you talking about the one we’ve seen?
Mr. Reichard said no, the one for stream restoration. But apparently,
YCPC talked to DEP and they said York Township withdrew it,so.
I’m just confused. Councilman Allar asked for? Mr. Reichard said
the one upstream of the basin. Councilman Allar asked when did
you talk to them? Mr. Reichard said just this week. Councilman
Allar said I talked to Felicia Dell today and she said York Township
is moving on. She said nothing about the township withdraw. Mr.
Reichard said she called me I guess Friday, and said that DEP told them
that the township withdrew the application. I called Bob today, he
said not. I emailed Felicia and told her not. You may have gotten
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 25
her message from me from Bob. I told them if its different, please
tell us because we’ll step in and be the host of the grant certainly.
Councilman Allar asked and the township is aware? Mr. Reichard
said it may be someone above him and he doesn’t realize, someone
above Bob Miller. The thing I can say if its someone else and they
needed help. See what you can find out, I think we should verify
with one of them. Councilman Manns said its been three weeks
ago that the developments in the township went before YCPC.
Mr. Reichard said York Township had five applications, one of
them is not eligible. So that one may have not been on board
with because its not eligible. York County Planning Commission
may have gotten that confused with that. Councilman Allar said at
some point, if the original one was disapproved then the county
puts our name on. We have to do another application. When the
original one is disapproved, then the county will be putting our
name on, at that point we have to do another application. Mr.
Reichard said for the county, its not quite the same. Councilman
Allar said its just another step. Mr. Reichard said with DEP
its just another step. It’s just minor paperwork. Councilman Allar
said what I told her, because the county still hasn’t’ put us in,
they have for the township. The township, last I heard, the
township was working on that application, they may get the
approval and we’re down here on the end of the list,
getting the paperwork in. It jeopardizes putting it all together.
Mr. Reichard said right. Councilman Allar said I can’t
get the county to change, to put it in there. Mr. Reichard
said it doesn’t make sense to me, if they have $2000.00 for
the project depending on disapproval from DEP. Something
we need to do, is we ought to start evaluation the fore bay
options. Talking actually to DEP, we should start to do that.
Councilman Allar said I still haven’t gotten together with
that land owner to talk about the easement. Mr. Reichard
said we talked a long time ago and this is in our estimate.
I highly doubt they would advise us to do it. We had
a concrete basin in the channel that we could actually
take a machine in and dig it out. Like a boat ramp. Councilman
Allar said that’s what I kind of did, when the head maintenance
guy for the township, Scott Depoe, that’s exactly what we talked
about, like a boat ramp. Mr. Reichard said I don’t know if DEP
investigates what that’s all about. Councilman Allar said the only
downside that I see in that is, to stay within the basin we probably
won’t need a permit, if we go outside the basin, then we will.
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 26
If we stay in close to the township, I don’t know why
we can’t do another permit. Mr. Reichard said we would
need a temporary permit to do the work. Councilman Allar
said even if we’re doing permanent changes to the basin?
Mr. Reichard said you’re in and done, then they leave,
they’re in the stream. We’re doing permanent changes in
the stream. Councilman Snyder asked couldn’t we take
that permit and just run it by? Mr. Reichard said you’re getting
a permit to work in the channel, they will allow you to do this
work on this plan in the channel and then you’re done. Councilman
Allar said but the changes we’re making aren’t permanent. Mr.
Reichard said I know you’re say its not permanent activity in the
stream itself. Councilman Snyder said you’re saying its permanent
cause you’re going there and to maintain it? Mr. Reichard said
you’re maintaining so we have a permit with the Division of
Dam Safety. Councilman Snyder asked anything else on the
maintenance report? So we got to follow up, nothing needs done
on the stream except to continually push the dredging and follow up
with the complaint on the Rexroth property. Anything else under
Park Councilman Allar said yeah, I don’t know if you want to talk about
Repairs it or maybe Seth. The use of the Kinsley School to do repairs up
at the park. Councilman Noll said, Kinsley School is willing to do
the project. What I’m trying to do is upgrade the bathrooms,
grading, more than just roof repairs. I’m going to push them as far
as I can. They’re willing to supply the equipment and manpower. We
are to supply the material and that would be material that we wouldn’t by chance have around. I need Dave to get a final look at everything.
In principal, they agreed to do everything. I don’t know if you need
to anything as far as money is concerned. Approve for $1000.00 or
so much money to do the project. Councilman Snyder asked if $5000.00
is more than enough? Councilman Noll said around $1000.00. A motion
was made by Councilman Allar to expend up to $1000.00 to cover
materials to work at the park. The motion was seconded by Councilman
Manns. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried. And then
after the fact, we hopefully, this in kind contribution can be used toward
the grant. Councilman Noll said we will keep track of all our hours,
donated material, equipment costs. We all do time sheets, we’ll keep
track of it. We’ll use a backhoe to redo the swale around the buildings,
we’ll take the excess material and pull it to the backside. I might be
able to even get them to re do the bathroom and the possibility of getting
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 27
the electric under ground. The secretary asked what their time frame was?
Councilman Noll said we would like to get it done before the rental
season. I’ll call and ask. The secretary said I think she starts renting in
May. Councilman Noll said we would like to put a concrete apron
at the bathrooms, so there’s handicapped access. I think the building is
big enough, I just need to get up there and lay it out. I have alto of this
stuff sitting in warehouses. Mr. Shearer said we need to talk to Gail.
The secretary said she needs to get her contracts for this season, and
need to talk to her about the camp and what she is doing currently. We
can get together. Councilman Snyder said that is great. Councilman Allar
said the guy was very enthusiastic about everything that came up.
Councilman Noll said that’s why we pitched it, I know what they wanted
for training with equipment usage. Councilman Snyder said I have one
other thing for maintenance but I want to get Jason out before we talk
about the maintenance issue. Its going to be a personnel issue. Anything
else under maintenance?
Zoning Mr. Reichard said the last thing on my report is the zoning ordinance
Amendment amendment. I did provide a revised copy as I understand from Aaron
Hoover under number 4, 4C, we basically said a 25 foot screening,
a buffer zone would be along the parent parcel. There was a concern
about having a small lot in the rear of the property, having the screening,
we just changed it so the parent tract, so if someone with planning comes
in here, it will be limited to the outside prior to any subdivision. B, we’re
saying that the buffer can’t encroach on any of the set backs. F, storm
water basins are not permitted; G, permanent wetlands are not permitted
within the buffer area. The only other thing that I’m aware of was
any reference to the borough is now changed to zoning officer, so they
have the authority to basically enforce the terms. I think the other thing
was you wanted to see the impact that would have made on a particular
development. I’ll lay it out here. It’s kind of deceiving obviously
keeping in mind that, this ordinance would not apply to any lands
in York Township and only apply to the pieces within Yoe Borough.
This section here. That’s basically the buffer that you can see. So all these
units except for these, would have to slide down. Obviously, there
are restrictions because you have the storm water basin in the back.
Potentially, what’s going to happen, their going to slide out of the borough
but maybe one, one and an a half there. You’re definitely limited here
because these all have minimum distances apart. Its 40 feet, its
20 feet in the township. There basically at those minimums now, so you
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 28
slide those there, these slide forward, so you’re out of room so. Potentially
going to have some impact on everything. How many, I can’t say for sure,
its gives you a feel for what it would at least do plus its going to push
them back further and you’ll definitely have a nice portion along to
be screened out from it. Councilman Snyder said I like the result.
Councilman Noll said I think you bring up another issue, I was thinking
about this, this week, I know what you were trying to do, eliminating
the amount of development, you could also make the distance between
the buildings greater. And if you look at the code, their going to 60 foot
around a lot of structures now because of getting fire trucks around them
so it might be. I don’t know if you would have it here but you. Mr.
Reichard said you have it. Councilman Noll said because you’re not
saying that, they can’t do it. Councilman Snyder said I think that’s there.
Councilman Noll said you say its forty, you can take it up to sixty and be
justified in doing that. Mr. Reichard said between buildings, it would be
part of the townhouse or road. Councilman Noll said I read the
MPC, and can’t deny special housing, it doesn’t deny the housing that
is more restrictive. Councilman Snyder asked could we add something
like this in? Mr. Reichard said we could do it at the same time.
Councilman Snyder said do it at the same time and just make it a separate
change. We have to cite the section in the zoning ordinance and then
you’d have an amendment of an existing section. Probably do both of
them with two different references. Do we want him to go back and
readdress that issue then for townhouse cluster and townhouse group?
I know you said about this when you do the codification, when we
get into that a little bit later. We’re not and that’s what I tried to get
through to Barry, when we say we’re codifying, all we’re doing is
updating our existing code book. When we codify, we actually want
to change things, that’s a totally separate animal. And of their
proposal included recommendations of what they say, cost an
extra $3900.00 that they’re actually giving us ideas on how to
go about codifying the whole thing to be more consistent. That’s a
codified ordinance, we’re updating an existing ordinance. There are
ordinances, let’s say like our property maintenance ordinance, that
we want to pick up rental properties, if it’s not used by the owner,
that’s deemed that they get compensation for. So in order to do
that, we need to do an amendment now or we can do it all together and recodify, then its done at one time. That saves on
advertising costs. Councilman Noll said you can find it in the
NFPA, the building code for the sixty foot, it would fall under
the IBC, R-2 dwelling. Mr. Reichard said we could put that in the
narrative for the planning commission. We can use that as a
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 29
justification. You want us to actually prepare the amendment,
give it to Pete, then turn it in. We basically put in the language.
It will need to go before the York County Planning Commission.
Councilman Snyder asked, Seth, do you want a month to
look over this, it’s a simple modification? Mr. Reichard said
what you need is a motion to amend your zoning
ordinance and present the modification to York County
Planning Commission. Its advertised and you wait
for comments from them. Councilman Snyder said at that point
you can start enforcing it, from what Pete said. Are you
comfortable in the changes that were made, he went over
everything that I had? Councilman Noll said yeah, he also
got the wetland. A motion was made by Councilman Howett
to amend the zoning ordinance and to present the modification
to the York County Planning Commission, have it advertised
and wait to hear their comments and along with the addition
of changing the two sections in the zoning ordinance with townhouse
clusters and townhouse group, sections 626 and 616, and 60 foot
set backs between buildings. The motion was seconded by
Councilman Manns. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said do you’re
Letter Councilman Snyder asked anything else under engineering? I
from YCPC only had on other item. It was just to confirm that the letter,
Mr. Bubb we received from Donald Bubb was faxed to Jason on the
seventh of January concerning the traffic study. Mr. Reichard
said it was, I left that at the office. He’s still not recommending,
is he? Councilman Snyder said he did not like that fact that we
told him what his job was. I think he took offense to that. But
I think we have some good conclusions based on our interpretation
of that traffic code that Dana found. And he is willing to revisit it.
He does say that. Councilman Noll asked are both these roads
owned by Yoe Borough? Councilman Snyder said yes. Councilman
Noll said there’s got to be something in, for someone to make
recommendations even though, cause their owned by the borough,
their adopted, don’t you think? Mr. Reichard said yeah, but
the problem is unfortunately, we have to have a licensed
engineer basically to support our concern. You can put the sign
there. Councilman Snyder said somehow this freaking driveway
got lost. Mr. Reichard said you can go up and put the sign up
there right now. If someone runs it and the copes them a fine and
it goes court. Well they can say charges dismissed. That’s the
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 30
catch. And the other problem is you can put a sign up and
someone runs it and they have a wreck. And they come back
and we say we just decided to put the sign up because we
thought it should be there. We want that certification by
a licensed engineer that says we recommend to put the sign
up. Councilman Noll asked is he the only licensed engineer?
Mr. Reichard said no, you have the right to go to any, myself
it’s not my specialty, it should be a traffic engineer that
specializes. I can get you an estimate, about putting a sign
up there. I don’t think it’s a bad idea. Councilman Snyder
said for God’s sake, he contradicts himself, this guy angers
me. Councilman Noll asked we pay him for that don’t we?
Mr. Reichard said it’s a service provided, your taxes
pay for him. Councilman Snyder said, one of the things
he talks about is, there’s circumstances, you’re not suppose
to be trying to move traffic. That’s the main idea, we’re
trying to get Main Street traffic back on Main Street. And when
they’re talking about the kids there. Yeah, there at two bus
stops along that road. The roads don’t have sidewalks and you have
Main Street traffic on a secondary road that was not meant to
hold that much traffic because he is talking there’s an indigent
number of cars there. Yeah there is, we have Main Street traffic
going up there. It’s not meant for that. I don’t have a problem
with the bus stops back there but I don’t like having Main
Street traffic back there with kids walking down the street unless
we are to go to all those home owners and say put a sidewalk
in. Councilman Manns said I’ve had to make two deliveries
and you do have to watch yourself. Councilman Snyder said
yes, you do. Councilman Noll asked can we see how much
it would cost to have someone look at it? Mr. Reichard said
probably TRG. We have a pretty good relationship with them.
Councilman Allar said we have to be careful about our
relationship with Don Bubb, he’s a player for the county.
If we go outside and get another engineer to look at that.
There maybe payback, this guy isn’t going to like it. Mr.
Reichard said I have the same problem with other
municipalities. He’s conservative and I’ve had other people come
in. Mr. Shearer said the biggest thing you’re going to find and
Jason will probably tell you this, its not to be used for speed
control. That’s one of the major issues that you run into why
you try to place a stop sign. Councilman Snyder said but
we’re not trying to do it for speed control. Mr. Shearer said
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 31
we know that but and that’s why like I said before about last month
about the semi divertor. I still think in my opinion that would be
the best option we have. Councilman Snyder said the man contradicts
himself right here, its say the need to control left turn conflict. It has
to have two major approaches and one approach has to have a large
amount of left turn movement that can not be satisfied. That’s what
we’re trying to satisfy because you have all that traffic going up
Philly making a left to go unto Elm. Mr. Shearer said exactly, we
were trying, what we were trying to say was Philadelphia is almost
becoming arterial and that portion of Elm Street heading toward
Dallastown because that’s the artery of traffic. What he said they’re
both low volume streets. Mr. Reichard said right, what he’s saying
there’s not enough traffic opposing Philadelphia. You can make the
left hand turn without much trouble. He’s saying you have to have
two major roads coming together at that intersection to warrant this.
Councilman Manns said it may not be a major road but during the
day its like a major road. Mr. Shearer said that’s why I like the idea
of what’s call the semi divertor. Basically what happens is at the
intersection of Main Street and Philadelphia, we block traffic
turning unto Philadelphia, both left and right, it would only be an
exit from Philadelphia unto Main Street. The street is not one way,
behind that semi divertor, it was two ways. That causes to have to
shift parking a little bit there, because of the residents on either side
because of the semi divertor. You may have to limit parking on the
one side just because of trying to set it up. Basically what would
happen, you can set it up temporarily and try it before you go to
actually making the curb to do it because that could be more
expensive. Estimates that I’ve seen are around $3,000.00 to
basically lay this out. You know with asphalt curbs and stuff.
Councilman Snyder said before I spend $3000.00 on that I’d
get an engineer in here to sign off. Mr. Reichard said I’ll talk
to them. I’ll have to show them what all I’m saying. If he says
its right on the books, I won’t even bother. Councilman Allar
said we have a trade off with traffic coming down the hill, there’s
no good solution because there’s so much traffic. Councilman
Snyder said all we’re doing is if they go up there, they’re going
to have to stop. And that is going to virtually get traffic back
unto Main Street. Yeah, will traffic back up there at
Dallastown at that screwed up stop sign. Yeah it probably will
but I’d rather have traffic stopped on Main Street. Councilman Howett
said I don’t think it will, the traffic that stops at that stop sign now
has to stop because everyone is flying down from Philadelphia Street.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 32
Councilman Snyder said that’s it. Councilman Howett said if you
wouldn’t have the people coming, flying over the hill to make
time, that traffic would keep moving there at that stop sign. It
always used to, it always did. Councilman Manns said they’re running from Main Street to come down the hill 45 to 50 MPH.
Councilman Allar said we put a request in for a survey to get
to the bottom of the traffic. Mr. Reichard said do you have a
problem with traffic backing up on S. Elm because of traffic
coming unto Philadelphia, are they the same? Councilman
Snyder said we’re talking about Main Street in Dallastown.
Mr. Shearer said we’re actually talking about the intersection
of N. Pleasant and Broad Street backing down to Main.
Mr. Reichard asked backing down to Main, where is it
causing conflict? Councilman Allar said that remains to be
seen, it may not be. Councilman Snyder said all we’re trying
to do is get traffic back unto Main Street. Anything else
for the engineer?
MA & PA Councilman Allar said real quick in the packet was the request for
Rail Trail proposals for the Rail Trail Community Greenway. I’m just letting
you know. We’re going to put together an agreement where all
seven municipalities will put the township and Debra Hately as the
fiduciary agents, to hand funds, the point of contact and so forth.
Probably in sixty days or less, we will be putting this proposal out,
for four firms to be invited for the feasibility plan. Councilman Snyder
asked do we need to act on that? Councilman Allar said no, there will
be an agreement like I said before we get into the study. Councilman
Snyder asked is that’s where we agreed to that extra monies? Councilman
Allar said I don’t know if we’re going to need any money yet. We will get
the agreement done first. Mr. Reichard asked what did the grant come in
at? Councilman Allar said $40,000.00, this is all public information. Mr.
Reichard said I was just, I knew I had heard it. I think you went for
like $45, 000.00. Councilman Snyder asked anything else for the
engineer? Thanks for coming tonight.
Zoning Officer’s Report
Bill Councilman Snyder said I do have one issue with the bill that came in
which I will have to say something to Dan tomorrow. On their bill,
the administrative fee of $25.00 showed up. That was to be taken care
of in the agreement.
Zoning Officer’s Report(cont.) Page 33
Tour Councilman Snyder said as far as what he was given. I did talk
to Barry when he said he wasn’t going to be here tonight,
he still hasn’t had a change to get with him to go through town.
He said he is planning on making arrangements for that this
Friday. I had to make contact with Dan. I told him I am not
making excuses for Barry. I don’t know what his schedule is,
I don’t know what is going on. I said if you do have any
questions concerns, give me a call. I will try to help. I did want
to keep him apprised because of what is going on with the
Info is Out Councilman Manns said I left a message with him. I did put his
information on the website. Apparently he is receiving phone
calls. Councilman Snyder said we’ve been trying to get his
information out. Councilman Manns said some people are
Report Councilman Snyder said as far as the report he submitted. Did
everyone get one? The secretary said yes. Councilman Snyder
said you see there, parking violation, zoning violation, there
were three sent out. Zoning permit issued and zoning inquiry.
Submitted for our consideration is a revised zoning permit
application. Upon approval of the application permit to be
displayed in the window. Also to be considered is a log of
zoning permits issued, numbered and recorded. This will
start better record keeping. Councilman Manns said already this
is better with the spreadsheet. Councilman Snyder said
everything is in order. Pete looked over this. I gave him a copy
to look over to see if there are any issues. He just signed off on
it. Councilman Manns said I can’t believe that Winters didn’t
know they needed a permit for working. The secretary said we
we were made aware from a resident complaint. That Winters
was up there building and didn’t have a permit. A motion was
made by Councilman Allar to accept these new documents. The
motion was seconded by Councilman Manns. All in favor.
Councilman Snyder said the new zoning application documents
are approved. Since I have to call him on those two items anyway,
anything for the zoning officer?
Emergency Management Coordinator’s Report Page 34
NIMS Councilman Snyder said I did get this from the mayor. Did everyone
get a copy of it. The secretary said no, it is noted at the bottom who
received it. Councilman Snyder said I did get this from the mayor
concerning NIMS. According to, I wish I would have asked him today
but I didn’t think of it at the time. NIMS is recommending, there is
still a miscommunication as to what municipal elected officials are
going to have NIMS. According to this though, recommends elected
officials who will be interactive with municipal jurisdictions and
agencies during an emergency incident have a minimum completion
of IS 100: Introduction to ICS and IS 700 NIMS. I think that’s
what everyone has. Councilman Manns said I have 1, 2, 7 and 9.
Councilman Snyder said most of you have 1 and 7. Councilman Noll
said I got unto the website so I could look at it. Councilman Snyder
said I don’t think there’s a timeline there to complete. So that’s
as much as I know about that. Anything else for the EMA report?
Councilman Snyder said he said he was going to fax something but
I don’t see anything. The secretary said the police report is in the
Audits The secretary said the audit by SEK & Co. will take place on
February 18,2008. And we are going to be audited by the
state for liquid fuels but unfortunately Eva Mills wasn’t in on
Monday so I need to call her again.
Roster The secretary said if anyone has any changes to the roster that
was sent please leave me know. John Sanford had one.
LGAC The secretary said Tom has agreed to serve on the LGAC
Executive Executive Committee. We signed him up the last time but
Committee they didn’t send him any information so this time I am going
to ask them to leave him know when the meetings are.
Comcast Councilman Snyder said the other items, I had under the
secretary’s report, we did receive notice from Comcast that
our new franchise agreement will expire December 19,2022.
Secretary’s Report(cont.) Page 35
It is for fifteen years. Councilman Allar asked why fifteen?
Councilman Snyder said they wanted thirty. Councilman Allar
asked is it regulated why even five years, ten? Councilman
Manns said the technology will change before that time especially
with all that is going on with cable. Councilman Snyder said its
not a sole agreement only for them. Councilman Manns said
Verizon may try to come and to try it. Councilman Snyder said
anyone can come in, the only thing that the agreement says is any
franchise agreement that we enter in with somebody else has
to have at least the same terms as theirs. Councilman Allar said
so when it comes, we come with someone else with better
technology? Councilman Snyder said and the other good thing, that
we have a catch all, we’re allowed to recoup fees on anything the
feds say we can recoup fees on. So if the feds automatically say
now you can charge for pay on demand, then we automatically
get it so its pretty much covered for us in that respect.
Audits Councilman Snyder said a reminder to council, there is the audits
Received for the fire company and the sewer authority in the circulate file.
Animal Councilman Snyder said the secretary needs to call, in my estimation,
Shelter we got the last letter from Susquehanna Stray Animal Shelter. They
are now indeed closed for business. My recommendation would be for
the secretary to get in contact with Hemler to see who they recommend
we enter into an agreement with, who they like to deal with, with
strays and see if we can get some sort of agreement. The secretary
said I need to call them to get our money back.
Resolution Councilman Snyder said we did get copies of the resolution 2008-02
2008-02 which was finalized with the attached schedule.
Bank Councilman Snyder said we need to make note. I won’t ask for
Statements comments tonight because we are getting late, two other issues to
discuss. Under the treasurer’s report, as required or as recommended
but the auditors, she is now submitting on a quarterly basis, the
actual statements so the council has the opportunity if so desire to
reconcile and keep tab on the money. One note I will point out, I want to
Balance take note of that and any questions or concerns bring back to the next
Sheet council meeting so you have an opportunity to look at that, at this
12/31/07 point. I will point out, notes made on the balance sheet as of December
31, 2007, our actual beginning balance is $51261.73, taking into
account the ten thousand dollars we still have to keep back for
Secretary’s Report(cont.) Page 36
Jonathan Snyder when they decide they’re going to sing off. What I
wanted, I wanted you to take note of is, we budgeted for a beginning
balance for 08 for $55,000.00. so we are already starting the
year, $4000.00 in the hole. Just keep that in the back of your mind.
The secretary said also keep in mind that the $4000.00, you had
about 17 properties that didn’t pay their taxes for 2007. Almost
double what you had previously so that is part of our short coming.
Check Councilman Snyder said we did get the check from Selective
Insurance to cover Pete’s cost in the Cottrell matter. That was
good news. It was for $1181.50.
Codify Councilman Snyder said we got information back from General
Codes on the codification. I don’t’ know if we want to try
to make a decision on this tonight or not. I think we can most of
it. Basically if you look at page 5, of this large agreement, you
will see that you would have to make some notes of what we
wanted. But for the most part what they’re saying is they will
update and put into this book, the ordinances that we supplied
to them and resolutions, revisions to the title pages, official
page, fee schedule, appendixes, key to index for $3855.00 along
with an updated CD version of the code. That updated CD
version will be in PDF format. Councilman Manns said one
question, I had a request when we had a problem with Penns
Valley publishers. What they do, its PDS, its called PCS,
it allows you to go through, its addressable, its liked to a
table of contents. Penns Valley, I had a problem. I was just
curious if whether they could do it. Councilman Noll said
its PDF, you just click on the section. Councilman Manns
said but most places that you have documents like that
its called PCS. Councilman Snyder said if you notice for
an extra $1250.00, on page 8, which may address your
issue. What they would like to offer, is what they call PC
Code Book. And then that disc would be easy to use software
which is searchable, you type in one work and then search.
Councilman Manns said if would save as, it depends on what
you want to look at. Look it up and fend for yourself.
Councilman Snyder said along with that there’s an annual
maintenance fee, second year forward of $550.00. So I am
assuming there’s a one time fee to put it in there, $550.00
to cover all the updates that we would have as we go through
codification. Hopefully one every other year basis.
Secretary’s Report(cont.) Page 37
Councilman Manns said the only question I would have on that,
is the updates are created and recorded on an updated disc?
Councilman Snyder said considering the first one, I mean that
first offer for $3855.00 includes a CD version. I would think
that’s electronic filed, if you updated in two years from now
on for another $3000.00. They would update that disc so that’s what
you have which is why $550.00 is for update. Zoning books they want
$74.00 for ten, I’m not quite sold on that, probably can get them
cheaper. The secretary said I went to Nefra recently for more
copies for around $50.00. Councilman Snyder said the last item on
page 10, said I like one but I don’t know if we’re prepare to spend
money on this one this year, is for $3995.00, they do what they call
an editorial analysis and that would help if we actually went into
full codification to find out, they would say these are areas you
need to update, these areas that are inconsistent with other areas
and make recommendations as such. We only have $5000.00
budgeted. The secretary said $4050.00. Councilman Allar said
I have another recommendation, when I saw the numbers as
I went through this I started making some phone calls. I talked to
Stew Graybill and he put me unto Keystone Publishers. Apparently
a lot of the same stuff. You have your zoning, code enforcement,
so on. The documentation on the streets in Red Lion, is a pretty
big area. Also they have subdivision in Red Lion, of which we
don’t have. I said what are you paying for this? $5600.00. And he
said you probably should have this person come and talk to you.
I think he’s out of Shippensburg. Councilman Manns asked does
he have a PC based? Councilman Allar said I haven’t talked to him.
I don’t know. I can get him here at the next meeting if that’s what you
want. Councilman Snyder said it doesn’t hurt. Personally I think,
how often do they do it? Councilman Manns asked also, every other
year? Councilman Allar said I didn’t ask. Councilman Snyder said
he may need to look at how many ordinances, what we have.
Councilman Allar said if you want to talk to him between
meetings, however you want to do it. Couniclman Snyder said
personally, I think if you want, you’re going to find out,
it may be comparable. $5600.00, if you take out the subdivision,
all the micro fesh, you have to do, you may end up with $3800.00
based on what we have now. But it doesn’t hurt to get a second
price. Councilman Allar said do you want to have a separate
meeting and talk to him in front of council, that’s assuming he would
want to come in. Councilman Snyder said I think it could be done
in a separate meeting. I mean basically what we did was, we met
Secretary’s Report(cont.) Page 38
with this gentleman, said look, here’s our book, here’s the ordinances
that need to go in that book, w hat do you recommend? Councilman
Allar said well, taking a lead on it, do you want me to get some dates
so I can get back to him. Councilman Snyder said just give me a phone
number. Councilman Allar said that’s the email that Stew sent.
Councilman Manns said two things, the only reason that this is
important to me, is that with Mr. Baade, the people really didn’t have
the service they deserved and make it as self service as possible.
We an also put in about this in the newsletter or newspaper.
Councilman Snyder said this doesn’t have a time line on it. If you
saw this first figure on the first page that is just to put it into their
own format. Actually that was also suppose to include going back
through their format everything is like micro feshed, searchable.
They would go back through, pick up these old documents in the
back. scan them in and then if you type in a word. Like if you
type in Main Street and then every single time Main Street shows
up in the minutes, it would come up. That’s part of their information
that they use. Just going bare bones, I said we wanted too, I said
give me an idea of what its going to cost. That’s what the $11,000.00
is for. Anything else for the secretary?
Councilman Snyder said we’re going to go into executive session here
to discuss personnel issues.
Executive Session at 10:04PM
Councilman Allar made a motion to go into executive session at
10:04PM. The motion was seconded by Councilman Howett. All
in favor. Councilman Snyder said we are now in executive session.
Reconvening the meeting at 10:26PM
A motion was made by Councilman Manns to make contact with
the Yoe Ambulance Club to have them draw up an agreement
for Pete’s review and our acceptance hopefully at the next
meeting, to have them pick up Dana as their employee and for
Yoe Borough to contract back services for maintenance from
the Yoe Ambulance Club, to pay for his out of pocket expense
for that employee such as FICA and such in so much as
benefits that are offered by Yoe Borough at 100% of the
cost and that dental, vision, and short term disability would be
Reconvening the meeting at 10:26PM (cont.) Page 39
a co payment amount if the employee chooses to pick them up.
At this time council would not that up. The 100% amount is
$231.82 a month. The motion was seconded by Councilman
Howett. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion carried.
Exonerations Councilman Snyder said let the record reflect that the tax collector
and has presented the list of exonerations and exemption request for
Exemptions 2007. There’s a total of 160 delinquents. Under per capita;
502 paid, 160 delinquent, 59 exonerations. Under occupation;
467 paid, 160 delinquent, 59 exonerations and 35 exemptions.
These will be sitting on the council table to be moved on at
the next scheduled council meeting. Anything else for the
Councilman Snyder said there’s no unfinished business.
PSAB Councilman Snyder said we had a request from PSAB that their
Request soliciting comments, I guess they’re going to make comments
to the legislature for the borough code revisions which will be
meeting on February 28. They’re reviewing article 17 which is
streets through article 29 which is bridges. So if anybody had
any questions or comments on those articles in the borough
code get them to Sandy and she can turn that into the
Office Councilman Snyder said we were also notified that Stan Saylor’s
Move office has moved, he’s no longer at Cape Horn Plaza. Its now
moved to Center Square in Red Lion.
YCSWA Councilman Snyder said we also received notice from York
Electronic County Solid Waster that the electronics recycling event will
Recycling be held on Saturday April 5, 2008 from 9AM to 2PM in our
Event office parking lot located at 2700 Blackbridge Road. Municipalities
that wish to conduct satellite collections program for their residents
New Business(cont.) Page 40
may piggy back unto the program at no cost. Interested municipalities
should contact Gregg Person no later than February 29.
Milt’s Councilman Snyder said we received notice from Milt’s Repair
Repair Service that due to increases in insurance and fuel costs its
Service necessary to raise our rates. The new rates will be $42.00 for
Notice regular time and $62.00 for over time. The bucket truck rate
will be $30.00. With the terms of the contract, these rates will
take place sixty days from the date of this letter which will
be April 1.
? Councilman Manns said one question since we now have Comcast
access here, they have promised, they haven’t billed us? The
secretary said correct, matter of fact I got a bill and it has a zero
balance on it.
Payment of Bills
Councilman Snyder asked did everyone have an opportunity to
go over the bills list? Bills that need to be added to that list
are: $71.53 for Verizon, Red Lion, we will put on except for
the administrative fee of $25.00 which we’re contesting at
this point, and the Penn Waste discrepancy on their bill, two
charges of $480.00 each. The secretary said that is already listed
on the bill list, correctly without. I have been paying the bill
that way since November without any $480.00 charges. I just
wanted to make sure because this if the first time I saw the
$480.00 on the bill twice. A motion was made by Councilman
Howett to pay the bills as listed along with the notations and
corrections and additions. The motion was seconded by
Councilman Manns. All in favor.
A motion was made by Councilman Howett to adjourn the meeting
at 10:34PM. The motion was seconded by Councilman Snyder.
All in favor.