YOE BOROUGH PAGE 1
150 NORTH MAPLE STREET
YOE, PA 17313
The regular monthly meeting of Yoe Borough Council was held on November 10, 2009 at the Yoe Borough Municipal Building, 150 North Maple Street, Yoe, PA. The meeting
was called to order by Council President Sam Snyder at 7PM followed by the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Council Members in attendance:
Sam Snyder
Tom Allar
George Howett
Bruce Manns
David Naylor
Seth Noll(arriving at 7:15PM)
Others in attendance:
Sandy Sterner, Secretary-Treasurer
Dana Shearer, Maintenance
Steve Malesker, Engineer
Opening Remarks
Councilman Snyder said just for notation, our solicitor is out sick tonight. He and I had discussed some things that we can go over in solicitor’s report. The mayor gave me some
things to go over under the mayor’s report. He’s actually had a conflict and he’s up in
Gettysburg tonight. And actually probably won’t be here next month as well because
of flying back from seeing his daughter from Texas. If he does make it next month,he’ll
be late. I just heard from Tom that Seth will be here about 7:30PM. And I haven’t heard
any update from Barry, if he plans on coming or he had a conflict. Mr. Shearer said
did he say anything to you George. Councilman Howett said he didn’t say anything today
about it. Mr. Shearer said they have work detail for clean up after that fire so. Councilman Snyder said still maybe on fire detail. Councilman Naylor said I won’t be
here next month.
Minutes
Councilman Snyder asked did everyone have an opportunity to look over the minutes
from the prior meeting, any additions or corrections? Naturally I’ll abstain since I can’t
pull one way or the other. If no additions or corrections do I have a motion to accept.
A motion to accept the meeting minutes from October 6, 2009 was made by Councilman
Howett. The motion was seconded by Councilman Manns. In favor: Councilman Naylor,
Minutes(cont.) Page 2
Councilman Allar. Abstaining: Councilman Snyder. Councilman Snyder said minutes
are accepted.
Solicitor’s Report
Ordinance Councilman Snyder said the first thing, the ordinance is slated for 7:30
2009-04 tonight. If we have to we’ll come back, I’ll interrupt you from
engineering and come back to that. But there are some things we can
go over.
Knier Councilman Snyder said he did prepare the hold harmless agreement for
Hold Ginny Knier. However I did not sign it on behalf of the borough after
Harmless with speaking with Pete. And he did, of course everybody got a copy
Agreement of his note. He actually wasn’t in favor of it. I read over the minutes and
Draft the minutes were a little went back and forth and basically there were
two comments that said check with Pete and Pete doesn’t like it but
he still drafted in case council wants to go through with it. In his letter,
he eluded to problems that you’re eluding to a Pandora’s box. That you
really can’t withhold anybody who wants to park on the borough
property. Also I mention to him, what about if you’re worried about
a potential Pandora’s box, I said what about one that has already
been created. And I know Seth wasn’t on council at that time, I’m
not sure about Bruce, I think you were though. I know Dave of course
wasn’t. Approximately three maybe four years ago, we use to have
what was called the Block Party, the infamous Yoe Fest. Councilman
Manns said they use to use the whole field up there. Councilman
Snyder said yeah. And there they just parked on the borough property,
without our permission. The following year we told them that’s a no-no.
And he came to council, the very next year within a week of the party
and council was hesitate at that time because it was within a week and
they had already spent thousands of dollars to promote this thing. We
said yeah you can but we put on the stipulation you’ve got to clean up,
no drinking. Councilman Manns said you also did the noise ordinance
right after that. Councilman Snyder said we did the noise ordinance
right after that and we also said next year you better give us plenty
of notice. Councilman Manns said he never did it after that. Councilman
Snyder said that’s when he stopped and literally we’re opening that
Pandora’s box up by saying we’re not letting him to but we’re going
to allow them to. He could come back and sue and say why were you
giving me such a guff when you just turned over and allowed it to her.
So. I personally think, especially when I read that she does have parking
over at Shaffers, I think the only issue was crossing the street. Cross
up here at the hill top because we had one person killed because the
bad knob and all she would have had to do is cross at the top of the hill.
Solicitor’s Report Page 3
For site distance. So tell your people to cross up here at the top of the
hill for site distance problem. I personally and after looking at Pete’s
memo, I would not recommend council following through with this
and allowing permission. Like Pete said, the next time, he didn’t want
to say though, what type of group, it started with three letters you know
what I mean. There’s no way to stop anyone, you’re already setting
precedence. All you need to do list who it is, the license plate and the
other criteria, you can’t park here in inclimate weather and you’ve
already set the criteria that you can park so. Councilman Naylor said
I think there’s a potential liability there I mean any number. Councilman
Manns said people will test it. Councilman Snyder said the problem is,
the other big problem is, why we put the signage, Seth wasn’t on then,
I think he was just about getting on. When we had the big hoopla with
the Rexroth hearing, and there was a gentleman, I don’t even know where
that panel truck came from, but he was parked like this, in the parking
lot. And we had fifty some people here and he had taken up five or
so parking spots and the police said we can’t tow them. So. I think
someone sees that you gave someone permission, they’re not going to
know that you’ve got to get permission and the next thing you know
everyone is wanting to get permission and how can you keep them off.
Its better not to open up that door, I think. So ah. Because there was
a motion made for Pete to draw up the hold harmless clause, do we
have a motion then not to follow through with allowing private parking
except for borough business on borough property, for the borough
building I should say not borough property, that would include parking.
Councilman Allar said I’ll make the motion. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Naylor. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said motion
carried. The secretary asked if Councilman Snyder was going to create
a letter so it could be typed and sent. Councilman Snyder said I’ll
talk to John, he wanted to do it since he got the initial contact or if
he wants us to do it. The secretary said let me know please.
Resolution Councilman Snyder said next item, Resolution 2009-14, formality
2009-14 its to appoint the auditors for 2010, even though we have a contract
with Stambaugh Ness. By law you still have to appoint an auditor
on an annual basis. So do we have a motion to resolve that the
borough council does hereby appoint Stambaugh Ness PC as independent
auditor for the borough for 2010 to perform audit of financial books
and records for the fiscal year ending December 31, 2009. Councilman
Allar said do you feel that its time to bid out? Councilman Snyder said
we do, which we just did last year was the first year for them, so we
have a three year contract. And every three year. Councilman Allar
said did the amount charge changed. The secretary said the amount
goes up every year. Councilman Allar said asked is there an advantage?
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 4.
Councilman Snyder said I think we saved a thousand dollars. The
secretary said we only had two firms and we don’t bid again until
the summer of 2011 again. Councilman Allar made a motion to
resolved Resolution 2009-14. The motion was seconded by Councilman
Howett. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said so be it resolved.
Proposed Councilman Snyder said we still have some time here, the next item
Budget I had is to adopted the tentative or proposed budget for 2010. We’re
do that under solicitor’s report so he knows we did it. Any questions
or comments on that? I did have conversations with Pete after we did
have our meeting. On some of the stuff that was discussed at the
workshop, in so much as the rec fee. He did not thing we could do it
because that is actually charged through a subdivision and land
development. He said since we don’t have our own subdivision land
development ordinance, we use York County. He said he doesn’t think
we can do it, check with York County Planning. I checked and followed
up with, that Terry Ruby. Mr. Malesker said Teresa Ruby, yes.
Councilman Snyder said and she said she would check in on it and try
to get an answer. In order for us to even do it, we need to have a park
recreation plan in place. She knows we’re going through the tri municipal
comp plan and she said since that’s not in place at the very least you
could not until that’s adopted. Now she said she will go back our tri
borough plan from 63, 64 to see if there’s a rec plan in there that we could
somehow use. But she said its, you need more, you have to meet certain
state guidelines, other than just having a rec plan you actually have to
say what you’re planning on doing. And trying to work towards it. If
you didn’t set any goals in that one she said, she doubts you’re going to
need it but she’ll get back to us. So that is on hold right now. When I
talked to her about the review costs for something like that. She said
we already have that in place and she reminded me of the resolution
that we do on the annual basis at the beginning of the year, she that,
when you adopt those engineering fees. That’s one thing that I was
going to charge you with in December, give us an updated fee schedule
for January because every January/February at the latest, we always
pass a resolution which adopts engineering fees. Believe it or not, I
had to, I haven’t rewritten that thing, I go back to the temp plate and I
just update the figures I haven’t re read the whole resolution since
we first past it, four years ago. She said that is for exactly that, to
be able to charge back engineering fees on subdivision and land
development. Any time it comes through. The reason it wasn’t charged
back on the former Rexroth case, was because that wasn’t a subdivision
and land development question that was land use issue. You were
appealing a land use. He was proposing a land development plan and
saying he was only going to be fifty five and over and so many condos.
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 5
But in reality, what he was only getting was a change of use. So once
he got the change of use, he could came in with anything as long as
it was under that zone, he could have applied for it. So she said, any
review of that is not charged back under the resolution that we have.
So we can actually recoup those costs. When I checked with Pete,
on the street light and to see if we can abate them, reduce them. Can
we recoup costs on them? I don’t know, like fire hydrant rental there’s
extra fees and cost. He said he would have to research that and get
back to us. I think that’s all that I had for him on that.
Submitting As far as the outstanding issues, he’s asked for an extension for submitting
Brief a brief on the Bowser hearing because of his health. Which the court
Extension granted.
Chronister Councilman Snyder said on the Chronister matter, he is not the happy
Matter camper. He said he can not get a straight answer from the board of
arbitrators. Evidently, all arbitration has to held within Old Courtroom
One of the Old Courthouse. Any arbitration, that’s where it is. And
you have to reserve that room months in advance, that’s the only place
you can hold it. So he had six dates that he gave them in the end of
November, beginning of December and he already had the room
reserved. And the Arbitration Board came back and said, we can’t
meet that date. And then he said, then you give me dates that we
can meet , so he can try to reserve this courtroom. And he said as
of today, they have yet to give him anything in writing as far as when
they’re able to meet. So that’s what we’re waiting on.
Ordinance Councilman Snyder said other than that we had the ordinance that, he
2009-04 did say we would not be charged for that mess up where his secretary,
Sandy did not pick up that we moved our meeting back to the second
week and sent to advertise for last week. And that’s all the updates
I had for solicitor.
Proposed Councilman Snyder said back to the proposed budget, I think that’s
Budget the issues that I had to go over with him. Are there any other? Councilman
Allar said the only thing, Cottrell I don’t know if there is anything there.
Councilman Snyder said I talked to him about that, that’s was right after
I got back from New York. And he said, he did have a conversation
with the attorney. The attorney was interested in what Pete had to tell
him. And he was going to follow that up with written correspondence,
a proof of basically what Pete was telling him because this is what
Cottrell we got. To be totally honest I haven’t heard anything back from Pete
as far as if he heard anything back. But he did make contact with him,
and that attorney was interested in hearing all that. So that just may
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 6
go away. Or what he’ll do, like we found out with the other issue.
He’ll find another attorney and just say, just file the case and.
Cause the last time we went through that, he went three attorneys,
as things were changing. One thing, since we’re still discussing
the budget here, I know you had mentioned, Seth, about other
alternatives for revenue. And I already updated council with the
issue of the park, recreation fee. But I was actually trying to find
a copy of it, on York Township’s site and that is not a very user
friendly site. Councilman Noll said I was just going to ask. The
secretary said there is an email here from Deb Hatley, in the packet
right in front of you there is an email. Councilman Snyder said
which after the update I gave council, basically we’re waiting for
further direction from York County Planning because in order to
do it you have to have a park plan in place. She’s checking, Teresa
Ruby from York County Planning, to see if we meet that criteria
because it falls under land development and subdivision. Councilman
Noll said if we have a park plan. Councilman Snyder said like I told
her I know one is coming up with our tri borough comp plan but.
Councilman Noll said did they have a list of requirements of what
the park plan had in it. Councilman Snyder said yeah there is, she
didn’t give me that. She said what she is actually going to do now
is go back and see if our prior comp plan that was passed in 63, 64
would meet the criteria. And she’ll get back to me. Councilman
Noll said I’d be happy to put that together. Councilman Snyder said
I did talk to council, when I was having this conversation with her,
she said to the best of her knowledge nothing has come through
from him even on the York Township side except for a small
subdivision down on Fruitlyn and Springwood, down that way.
Seven unit. Councilman Allar said that’s already done with York
Township. Councilman Snyder said she said nothing else, she
doesn’t even know what he may be contemplating for up there.
Anyway, I digress, as I was looking over that. One thing I don’t
if you want to pursue it further. I did talk to Pete about the street
light issue. I saw where they have, a business tax. It’s a business
gross receipts tax. And they charge one mill on gross receipts,
not profit, gross receipts of any corporation. For profit corporation,
York Township does. The secretary said I think York Township
has a street light tax too. Councilman Snyder said that would have
to go of course on property tax. But this business tax that I saw,
if you want me, I didn’t ask Pete to pursue it because I didn’t, I wanted
to bring it up to council, but I happened to see it. They’re charging
a one mill. Just off the top of my head, as long as you make it as part
of your criteria, the definition of what constitutes a business. Why
couldn’t you include these corporations/businesses of all these
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 7
rental properties that, you’re incorporated, you’re in business, you’re
making a profit, suppose to making a profit so go on gross receipts.
I don’t know how complicated it is, theirs is being run by the tax
collector. Which if anyone saw, any of the results, Connie can be back,
I can’t say that, it has to be done by the election board, when they
certify the results, we’ll have her back in. If you want to pursue that
option, because I know when you make it across the board, like
that, you’ll be touching upon our local businesses. You know, Yoe,
Strobecks, Auto Parts, Shaffers, any of the smaller businesses. If they
are incorporated, or for profit, we’ll be hitting on. Councilman Manns
said just remember, they’re not going to be happy about it. Councilman
Snyder said yeah, that’s why I want to bring it to council’s attention
before we say anything to Pete. I just happened to see, maybe we
can’t even adopt it. Maybe that’s something, that’s only out there
for townships. Councilman Noll said one thing, I don’t know how
far you got with the budget, after we did our budget workshop, I walked
away thinking we’re probably going to have a huge problem next
year, we shaved the budget very close. There’s forty dollars there from
before, that I think we’re going to actually spend this time. And instead
of having that money to start out the following year, we’re going to
have a huge deficient. I was even wondering, I know noone wants
to raise taxes. At least talk about a ¼ mill since we no longer have
the occupancy taxes, we can get the same money by raising it slightly.
And not have to send out. We were sent out in the sending, all the
things that went into those other taxes. We really wouldn’t lose anything
in doing that. Unless we don’t have, I think its something we should
look into, because I’m fearful. I don’t know if there is any more blood
in the stone, we’ve squeezed it out. Councilman Allar said I don’t
think I’ve seen a budget here in ten years, that hasn’t been tight. It
was like this last year, the year before. Councilman Noll said the
only thing I fear is we’re banking on saving 10% on our budget, and
I don’t think we’re going to do it this time. We’ve cut so many of
those numbers back so far unless there is a Christmas miracle.
Councilman Snyder said that’s what we had faced year after year,
just like Tom said, we held off for twenty years. Didn’t have a tax
increase. Until two years ago, three years ago, we had to raise it
up. Then we had to take a bite. It was like a one mill increase.
Councilman Allar said it was like two in two years. Councilman
Snyder said we may have had back to back, I think one was a ½
mill and the other was a mill. We had two back to back. Councilman
Noll said I just don’t want to see us in that position. I know all
the arguments on what taxes do and everything else, I completely
understand that but unless there is a bag of money I don’t know about,
its just, we have to do it this year or really get. Councilman Snyder
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 8
said one of these years its going to happen again. And we had
that debate at this council table ever since I’ve been on it. Its
do you want to do a ¼ mill now, 1/10 of a mill now, and try
to keep that going. Or do you want to cut bare bones, wait
till next year see what you have to do, cut bare bones. Cause
we made it through again, we squeaked again, then one time
its going to catch up to you, then you’re going to have to hit
them with a one mill increase. Now personally, I personally
agree with you, I’d like to see 1/10 of a mill, or a ¼ of mill
increase. I think its prudent. At the same point I think looking
at this budget knowing where our beginning balance is, and
knowing for a fact how much of this is going to go away
next year. I mean we’re going to save $20,000.00 off the
bat just by getting rid of the dam maintenance. Okay we
can afford to have $20,000.00 less in beginning balance
and still have the exact same budget. We have $2000.00
in the comp plan, that’s going to go away. We have $3000.00
in codification that’s going to be paid for next year so
right there, there’s $25,000.00, that this year is done and
over with. We can afford to be $25,000.00 less next year and
still have the same budget. Councilman Noll said yes and no,
cause we’ve carried that same $20,000.00 for a number of years
and we still have $60,000.00. You’re going to spend that,
so you add that to expense. Councilman Snyder said another
thing as to why, I see where you’re coming from, I just want
council to know everything on the budget. We also inflated,
I said inflate, we’re gauging ahead, but the electric numbers
are inflated. What I found out after making a phone call to
Ron Miller’s office, PPL takes affect in January, Met Ed
doesn’t take affect until the following January in 2011.
So, we’re not going to see those numbers next year. Not
saying they’re not coming in 2011. Councilman Naylor said
I thought I heard that too, that we’re not going to see anything
until 2011. Councilman Snyder said it depends on who you have,
PENN Elect and Met Ed won’t go into affect until 2011. He
told me he’s hoping to have this reopened next year, once
PPL puts theirs in, he’s hoping that enough people start
complaining, that they’ll actually have to deal with it so that
we can stave something off in 2011. He said he also knows that
its been in the works between the PUC, that Met Ed since
they were looking at a 60 to 70% increase, of passing a law
because they don’t want to back off of what they promised
them in 96, only allowing them to graduated in, 20% each
year. So that we’ll not see those numbers that we budgeted for
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 89
at least a couple years so. So we do have some wiggle room,
I think there is wiggle room for next budget but I absolutely
see its coming. Councilman Noll said I think the nice thing
that we can do, this time, is to say very honestly, that we
got rid of the nuisance taxes, we’re shifting it over to normal,
that way its easier, however you want to put. I think we have
an opportunity to do it that way. Councilman Snyder said
we got rid of the nuisance taxes. That is one thing I wanted to
bring up also, we still have, which I don’t know if Pete
he ever gave his opinion on it. This ordinance with Dallastown,
the storm water fee ordinance. That is still a possibility.
Councilman Noll said but that is a directed fund that goes.
Councilman Allar said that goes to storm water. Councilman
Snyder said but if we can put that $10,000.00 towards dam
maintenance or whatever, and pull that out of general fund,
it frees up. Councilman Naylor said or engineering costs
related to that something. Councilman Snyder said its freed
up ten thousand dollars so, yeah it’s a directed, but we have
money directed into that type of work anyways that we can
pull out and put elsewhere so that is still a possibility that
we never explored. Councilman Naylor said something else
to think about, not to related to stormwater, I don’t know
when the salt agreement with York Township is over.
The secretary said 2012. Councilman Naylor said I wouldn’t count on having another salt agreement like that. I think at
point I think we’re going to have to buy our own salt.
Councilman Snyder said yeah. The secretary said well hopefully
by then you’re have your tri comp plan in then go to Red Lion
and Dallastown. Councilman Allar said or Windsor Township.
Councilman Snyder said Windsor Township,that gal from
Windsor Township, I’ve known her for twenty five years. She
is just so nice and easy to work for. She’s had the same complaints,
how difficult at times the township can be to work with. Councilman
Allar said I have a meeting with her next week, you want me
to bring it up, its up to you. Councilman Naylor said its out there
a little bit, but its something you ought to consider. Councilman
Snyder said well its not out there far enough, when you think about
that we’re in 2010 next, and next year is when they have to actually
put in they’re bid for costars or PENN DOT and saying this is
what we expect to use, that needs to be in place next year for the
2010/2011 winter. I think our. The secretary said we don’t
have to have it until the fall of 2012. Next year and the next year
is good. Councilman Allar said you are talking about the material.
Councilman Naylor said I don’t know what the agreement was
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 10
with York Township, I don’t know. Councilman Snyder
said anything really. Councilman Naylor said if council
gave it to haul it. The secretary said it was part of the
building, we put the building up there and they used the
salt building. Councilman Snyder said we could probably
get the same deal with the state. The idea is if we have
something to offer them, like storage or something for
this side of Windsor Township, that they can dump
material in and use it. We’ll even help you load it up,
while Dana’s here and you just you’re material here
and let us use some of it. Councilman Allar said there
are storage areas where the township building is.
Councilman Naylor said I believe so. Councilman Allar
said that’s not too far away, that’s on this side. Councilman
Snyder said I guess they did move that. The secretary said
its there around Freysville isn’t it. Councilman Allar said
there has to be benefits by joining with them. Councilman
Snyder said it doesn’t hurt to, look into it. Mr. Shearer
said didn’t they use to be part of the. Councilman Manns
said yes, the YCOG. Mr. Shearer said I know that most
of them COG material, Shrewsbury Township. Councilman
Manns said Earl couldn’t get enough people involved. He
did attempt to do that. Mr. Shearer said I know Glen Rock
was getting it through their contract. Councilman Snyder said
so as far as the budget, feel comfortable. Councilman Allar
said the only thing, the county is going to start charging for
doing traffic studies. You if you want to put a $250.00 in
there for traffic studies. Its not going to change the bottom
line, just have a line item. Councilman Noll said what would
a ¼ mill look like to a $100,000.00 house. Councilman
Snyder said $25.00. You are preaching to the choir. I know
when you start talking taxes, it’s a big taboo, no one likes
to raise taxes. I don’t like paying my taxes, nobody does. At
the same point when you look at what the borough provides
for what we charge, we’re only at less that three mills. I
think. The secretary said 2.955 mills. Councilman Snyder said
so you’re talking at a $100,000.00 home, $295.00. You pay
$240.00 just to pick up your garbage,$295.00 bucks I think
you’re still getting a bargain. You can compare apples to
oranges and say Windsor Township doesn’t have any, well
yeah they have the land fill too, generating money for them.
We were high when that one list came out, because we just
happened to raise up our taxes then. We were at the bottom
of the list, the last twenty years before we had to raise our
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 11
taxes up. Now I’m starting to see others raising there taxes up,
I think I saw West Manchester in the paper this morning. They’re
putting theirs up. Its like, everybody eventually has to do it, I think
we’re in line, I think for what we give, I think our taxes are
reasonable. Yeah, people don’t like to hear a tax increase, whether
its $10.00 or $25.00. It also didn’t help, that those two reassessed
and we expect to get less in. Even if we got in the same amount.
Councilman Allar said we can always do it in mid year, on an
emergency bases. Councilman Snyder said yeah if something. I think
maybe, because there is some wiggle room, just off the top of my head
I gave you $25,000.00, I see where you are coming from. I tell this
to everybody, I think we’re probably okay for this year, but next
year I think we seriously need to consider it. I really do. Councilman
Noll said that’s why I was saying, I think we ought to look at a
¼ mill this year to soften the blow for one and also we got rid
of those nuisance, it would be the same amount or a little more than
that would be. Councilman Noll said on a $100,000.00 home. The
only problem there is, well we weren’t actually collecting what we
were budgeting for, because of deliquents and everything else, we
ran those numbers, yeah we were capturing tenants, only when
we knew who they were and where they were and that’s going to
be on property. I do have to open up a public hearing at this point.
Anyone else want to consider reopening the budget? Councilman
Allar said I’m opposed to it. Councilman Snyder asked Dave?
Councilman Naylor said leave it the way it is. Councilman Manns
said I’m opposed to it. Councilman Allar said by not doing it, one
of the reasons I’m opposed to it, its just too easy, it gives us an
excuse not to do the hard work. Sit down and work out a long term
plan. If we had a plan, and this was a short term piece of that of
that five year plan, that would make sense. We don’t have a long
term plan, we haven’t even started talking about a long term plan.
I know I know if we do it now, we are going to be sitting here a year
from now having the same conversation, another tax increase. As
long we are not doing the planning that we’re suppose to be doing.
Its just too easy. Councilman Snyder said and that’s where, again
its that idea, quarter mill this year, quarter mill next year, quarter
mill the following. What people hear, is that you raise taxes three
years ago, what we’re trying to do is stave off that one year where
you have to double taxes in one year, like we had to do. Councilman
Manns said we aren’t even talking about what the school taxes are
here. Councilman Allar said but those increases are not in
good case for expenses, so unless you create new revenue, you
can talk in case of one mill, maybe not even that, ¾ of a mill,
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 12
its not going to be a solution. Councilman Snyder said and that’s
why I said about that business, I happened to see a business, I don’t know if a borough can charge that, I know a township can, but
we fall under borough code, township can fall under city code. But
we can look into it. But that also means hitting the Ma and Pa shops
cause just say its against the rentals, I just happen to see that half
of our people are rentals, we talk about how the rentals hurt our town.
If you’re going to be a bedroom community, it would best to go
back to single family homes, its like, lets hit some of these rental
properties up for the money that they’re supposedly making. Councilman
Allar said I know of one, I’m not going to mention names, they are
considering leaving. Councilman Snyder said as long as its not the
fire company. The motion dies then because, have to remember my
borough code. In absence of the Mayor, President of Council acts as
Mayor, because in event of a tie, because there is six of us there.
I never asked George yet where he is leaning. So at this point, if I
have to act as mayor, that makes three to the maximum of two.
Because I would have to be. If George says he’s going to vote with
Seth, I would lean towards voting with Seth, I would rather see
a small increase rather seeing a large one three years from now,
four years from now. That makes it a tie vote. At that point it goes
to the mayor to break the tie especially when it comes to budget.
The mayor is not here, so I have to act as mayor which means,
there is only five. So the most it could be is three to two, if I’m
reading my borough code right. I’m pretty sure I’ve got that
right. Now, I’m pretty sure I’ve got that right, at the very least
we’ve one new council, two new council people. He’s going
to be reelected, we have one new council person on that doesn’t
constitute reopening. I think yeah it would be reopened mid way.
Councilman Noll said and if we do decided to reopen mid year,
how does that work? Because taxes are already out, it doesn’t
matter. You might as well wait until the following tax year. Councilman
Snyder said its just a matter of mid year, we would have to start
discussing then, so we don’t have this discussion now at the end
of the year. So that everybody is on key. And that’s why I said
before, you know, never been to brow beat everybody, but when I
say we really got to control spending. Our best way to stave off
taxes right now is to curtail that spending because as you see,
theoretically we spend every dollar we shouldn’t have a beginning
balance, and we’re $90,000.00 in the whole. That’s what DCED,
said we’re in a constructive deficit. The only reason we have this
to work with is, last year, we did not spend $76,000.00 of what
we said we were going to. Now we know twenty of it was with the
dam. So as we said, we know we’re going to spend that this
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 13
year. But also I know that its going to fall away next year, so that’s
a wash. You know technically, unless something else pops up. So.
Again. The motion dies for lack of a majority from consensus wise.
We didn’t have to take a vote, I was getting consensus. So then
back to the budget, any other questions or concerns. It was a valid
point. Councilman Noll said I just, if it will be all at one time.
Councilman Allar said do we need a line item for the 250. The
secretary said you don’t have to this year because you have $973.00
in appropriated balance. I take it out of miscellaneous and next
year we can put it in. Councilman Snyder said and one thing I saw,
I saw that email too, I saw an email back. I saw a communication
from Seth, or from Dana, that said, with Dana with his LTAP
background and being certified in that, we will be able to handle
a majority of those request, there is going to be some of them
that he can’t, those we’d have to look at. But the majority of them,
like for a handicapped parking placard, he’ll be able to handle that.
It may not be an issue really. Any more questions or comments
about the budget? A motion to propose and advertise the 2010
budget was made by Councilman Allar. The motion was seconded
Councilman Naylor. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said
budget is. The secretary asked are you going to get the tax
ordinance ready. Councilman Snyder said yeah. Councilman
Noll said we need to find some ways to generate some revenue.
Councilman Snyder said since I did bring that up, where do
we want to go from here about that business, do we have
a consensus to look into further, find out. Well if someone
like Dennison is bringing in, my God what’s rent, $6000.00
a year off of one unit and he has say 100 units, that is
$600,000.00 and if you have one mill. That would be
$60,000.00. Councilman Manns said if you have some savings
from the tri borough initiative that we are looking at. Councilman
Snyder said at this point we’re looking at other alternatives, I know
one of the other things they have is a mercantile tax, we don’t
have that type of business in town. They have a room and board
tax for hotels, we don’t have that type of a tax. We don’t have
any liquor license in town that we can tax. Councilman Manns
asked is Yoe really dry, is there anything to generate, we don’t
have anything. Councilman Snyder said lets just say we need to
update some zoning. Councilman Allar said I thought all
municipalities in Pennsylvania were given one license. It
would be good for financial planning, a valuable asset. Councilman
Manns said along the rail trail, liquor and cigarettes. Councilman
Snyder said interesting discussion. Councilman Naylor said I think
its worth looking into. Councilman Snyder said we’re running a tad
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 14
late.
Recessing the Regular Meeting at 7:59PM
A motion made by Councilman Noll to recess the regular meeting at 7:59PM and
to open up the public hearing. The motion was seconded by Councilman Howett.
All in favor. Councilman Snyder said so be it.
Public Hearing for Ordinance 2009-04
Councilman Snyder said I’d like to open the public hearing for ordinance 2009-04.
Yoe Borough, York County adopting the Uniform Code, I don’t know why
he titled it that way, adopting the Uniform Construction Code and Municipal
Building code of the Borough of Yoe. We’ve already done that in 2005. Actually
its not the best title for that, because that specifically adopts Section 403.28
in its entirety pertaining to uncertified buildings within the departments jurisdiction
and utilizing the standards of issuance of Certificate of Occupancy for uncertified
buildings. Is there any comments? It’s a formality thing. Because we have so many
grandfathered homes, when you apply for a building permit they have to reissue
an occupancy permit. Technically you could not issue an occupancy, because say
you’re electrical system is not up to snuff, so this way if all you’re getting is a
permit for say a deck, not tying then into electrical he can issue the occupancy
permit on the uncertified building without you having you update your whole
building too. Councilman Noll said because it has a lot of implications more
so on the commercial side than the residential, when you go in you have to
classify yourself and if you are a change of occupancy in the code, that you
don’t have to 100 % for the new building code, it would just be that occupancy,
if you use the existing building code, there are a lot of mechanism in there
on how far up you have to bring your building to code based on the rate of
occupancy. Storage use is not as hazardous as say an auditorium, assembly
and its packed with people, exit doors, bathroom all those types of things so,
this gives the mechanism of the uncertified building, when it was built, as
to inspections and all sorts of things. Councilman Snyder said comments,
questions. Let the record reflect there is no public here for public comment.
Do you want me to sign both of them. The secretary said sign both of them.
The mayor is not here to sign them at the meeting. Councilman Snyder said
he has thirty days to veto it. So any further comment? A motion was made
to adopt Ordinance 2009-04 by Councilman Howett. The motion was
seconded by Councilman Manns. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said
so be it ordained.
Closing of the Public Hearing at 8:04PM and Reopening of Regular Meeting
A motion was made by Councilman Howett to close the public hearing at 8:04 PM
Closing of Public Hearing at 8:04PM and Reopening of Regular Meeting(cont.)
Page 15
The motion was seconded by Councilman Noll. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said
hearing is closed and I’d like to reopen the regular meeting.
Councilman Snyder asked anything else for the solicitor?
Engineer’s Report
Councilman Snyder said engineer’s report.
Bid Open Mr. Malesker said lets get started with the bid opening for the flood
for the impoundment area restoration. Here are the checks that the bidders paid
Flood for the spec books. Here’s a copy of all the bids that were submitted.
Impound- The bid tab is attached to the engineer’s report. Take a look at that.
ment Area Our estimate was in the $115,000.00 to the $120,000.00 range. Low
Restoration bid was Abel Construction at $98,592.75. Councilman Allar said it
was in that range county engineering? Mr. Malesker said whats
that? Councilman Allar said the bid was in that range including
engineering, construction was at $100,000.00, the estimate. Mr.
Malesker said we had the revised construction estimate at
I believe $125,000.00. Councilman Allar said not the last one
that Jason sent. Mr. Malesker said that was my understanding so
any way, they are the low bid and they do not have any sub contractors
listed. They are very capable of doing the work. They were actually
the ones, when we were getting estimates as this project moving along,
they were one of the ones that we had contacted so they probably
knew more about this project than some of the others. We had contacted
a couple. We had a good turnout. There is twelve bidders. Councilman
Snyder said two of them were under bid. Mr. Malesker said with that,
I’d recommend that the bid be awarded to Abel Constuction at their
cost of $98,592.75. Councilman Snyder said and we have all the other
monies in place from the county, and. Mr. Malesker said yes, we’re
waiting, we don’t have the Growing Greener money yet. We had asked
Felicia about that, she hasn’t gotten back to us. Councilman Allar
said Seth said this is a good price. I’m saying, its winter time, these
companies are hurting to keep their crew together. They don’t
have a lot of business anyways because we have a recession. We
took $20,000.00 out because we don’t have to worry about the
dirt. So, you know, keep in mind we still have wetland mitigation.
And the whole idea here, is to the estimate to hold, we would have
excess money, that $20,000.00 that we would save going to Red Lion.
We could use that for relocation of the wetlands. I know they’re
requesting more Growing Greener money, we don’t have it yet and
if we don’t get it then we’re on the hook for $30,000.00 for relocation
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 16
of the wetlands. We don’t have a reserve, that $20,000.00 deal
with Red Lion that’s gone, with this contract. Something,
is off somewhere. I don’t know what happened. I didn’t expect
any of these numbers to come out like this. Mr. Malesker
said I know Jake had said his, Jake Romig did not bid on this,
he wasn’t able to get a bond for whatever reason. Councilman
Allar said basically we’re moving dirt, that’s it, we’re going to
put some concrete things in there but basically its taking
dirt out and driving it a few hundred yards up the road. Councilman
Snyder said and that’s why I think we went high, I think Jason
was saying all along, we’re probably looking at closer to the
$120,000.00. And. I know you had always had a problem with
that, you always thought it was high. And you always thought we’d
get it down to $60,000.00 with what we did. Councilman Allar said
but if you remember, I believe it was said when I asked this question,
Jason, you know how much money we got, and that’s a fixed thing,
are we wasting our time Jason, can you double check your numbers and
make sure we can do it with the money we have, or we just going
to be unwheeled. Jason went back out, crunched the numbers, talked
to vendors and talked to so and so, cost per ton for a certain rip rap.
He came backed and said, yeah I made that estimate years ago, and its
still good. I don’t know, six, seven months ago. Councilman Snyder
said I guess I’m not quite following. Councilman Allar said the estimate
was $100,000.00 for construction and $20,000.00 thereabouts for
engineering. So I think, it was $103,000.00 for construction the whole
thing came out to be $123,000.00. And he verified it. Councilman
Snyder said it came in at $98,000.00, we’ve been paying the engineering
all along. Councilman Allar said right, what you’re not following is.
Councilman Snyder said so, aren’t we under what. Councilman Allar said
what you’re not following is, the estimate was before we had the deal
with Red Lion. In other words the $20,000.00 for the dirt, we contract
with someone and he may be taking it ten miles away. That cost factor
is now out, it was in the estimate, its not in the real world anymore.
So I expected that $20,000.00 to be put back in with a lower number and
that would be used then to make ourselves well because its going to
be coming out of our pocket to relocate the wetlands. Councilman
Noll said you basically hoping to see $100,000.00 versus $120,000.00.
Saving $20,000.00. Councilman Allar said and the construction cost
to come in around $80,000.00. Because, the single biggest cost was
removing the dirt and transporting and now they only have to move it
a couple hundred yards. So that we took out. Councilman Snyder asked
is it possible that they’re looking at whether I have to move it ten miles
or I have to move it 200 yards, I’m still moving dirt. Mr. Malesker
said part of the problem is that there is 4,000 cubic yards of material
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 17
to move. That’s a lot of material. Councilman Allar said that’s up
a thousand from Jason’s estimate, he had 3000. Mr. Malesker
said well based on whatever the current topography is, the
sediment that’s in there. Councilman Snyder said you get more
sediment every rainfall. Mr. Malesker said you say an average
of 3500, that’s a lot of trucks going back and forth. Councilman
Allar said, all I’m saying it is what it is. Councilman Snyder said
I’m looking at is as, you have $120,000.00 for the project. Councilman
Allar said actually we’ve got more than that. Councilman Snyder said
well yeah, we’re not even talking the $11,000.00 that we got from Ron
Miller. We’ve got $120,000.00 earmarked for the project, we have
been paying for the engineering out of our own budget all along. So
the way I’m looking at it, we have a $98,000.00 as long as there’s not
a lot of overages, that gives us $22,000.00 that we can pay towards
the mitigation, add that to the $11,000.00 that we got from Ron Miller,
we have $33,000.00 that we can work on for the mitigation. Because
as far as I know, how you’re looking at $20,000.00 for engineering,
we’ve already been paying the engineering, I mean so I don’t count
that as part of the $120,000.00. Councilman Allar said but I am,
because that’s the money from our pockets. We want to cover that,
if we can cover it through grants or through pledges from other
municipalities whatever, again I could have gotten all that if I went
in with good solid number, I could have gotten another ten, fifteen,
twenty thousands, I can only work with the numbers I’m given.
Councilman Noll said I guess the question is, do we feel we can recoup
any of this engineering costs, is it money that the borough spent in
light of the fact that we have wetlands mitigation. I guess the answer
is probably not. Mr. Malesker said well, there is still a chance that, that
additional Growing Greener money is going to come through. Councilman
Allar said we also saved on construction costs by what Dana did, all
that tree work, the contractor doesn’t have to do that. There are all kind
of things we took off the contract. Councilman Snyder said I don’t know,
I’m just looking at it, when we originally applied for that money, we’re
talking two years ago. Councilman Allar said that’s what I’m saying,
when Seth asked Jason, are we wasting our time, are we spinning our
wheels. That wasn’t five years ago, that was this year. Councilman Noll
asked Steve, I don’t know if you have anything here, what are we looking at for engineering costs yet to go on this project. Do you have a budget or
an estimate because I know we ran into, its very tight up in the park, and
we’re watching that. Mr. Malesker said right. Yeah, what what we have,
I gave the estimate for what we need for the construction stake out, I
gave you an estimate for I guess that was. Councilman Noll said we still
have to pay for all the spec books, the time you put everything together,
the bids together, bid tabs, we haven’t been billed for any of that yet.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 18
Mr. Malesker said some of the, I’m not sure what was on the last
invoice but that would have included the time that went into putting
the things together. This was advertised in October, stuff had to
be put together prior to that date so. The secretary said the last
bill that I got, which will be due December 4th, was $2573.44 and
the latest date on here, is October 16th so its through October 16th.
Its for all different, YCPC grants, letter to the York County
Commissioners, special review, spec books, permit for dam
maintenance, meetings, letters, project coordination. That bill
will be paid in the beginning of December. Mr. Malesker said
that’s going to include a lot of the spec book plan production time.
The secretary said that’s going to take your total cost up over
$30,000.00, that you paid so far for engineering. Since 2006.
Councilman Noll said that being the case, what do you have left then
say today, to the end of this project. $10,000.00. Mr. Malesker said
I can tell you what we have for. Councilman Noll said again just
want to make sure everyone is anticipating all those costs. Mr.
Malesker said I gave you estimates for, we had asked for an additional
$30,800.00 through Growing Greener. Councilman Allar said if
we get the Growing Greener, we’re okay. But that’s the big if.
Councilman Snyder said that’s the one thing, well that’s the meeting
I missed back in the summer time. When this whole discussion came
up that it was going to cost like $30,000.00 for this wetland mitigation.
The first thing I thought when I read it, was where are we coming up
with this money. Its like, I thought, matter of fact I mentioned it to
you when we met here with Steve about the park and I said my idea
I thought they were putting the wetlands and since they had to put
them in anyways, once they do all their little things, we just get
credit back, and say okay, we’re giving you ¾ of an acre, .76,
whatever you needed and it offset. I didn’t understand where $30,000.00
is coming to us, it should have been that simple. And if we had to
watch our little ¾ of acres for five years, so be it. But York Township
had to put in 8 acres of wetlands anyways, why are giving them anything.
Hey, give us three quarters of an acre. Councilman Noll said actually,
their grant doesn’t cover any of the wetlands. Councilman Allar said
they’re not putting them in. Councilman Snyder said they have to put
them in, because that was the deal when they put in Sage Hill because
I sat in those meetings. They allowed him to put those buildings in
at Sage Hill and the idea was he was going to have to mitigate wetlands
in order to do it. Where he was purposing those buildings. Now if they
took on the responsibility. Councilman Noll said that’s kind of what
happened, instead of putting in the wetlands, he donated that 8 acres
or whatever that acreage was to York Township, to create a park which
got him off the hook. Councilman Snyder said uh huh, didn’t they
Solicitor’s Report(cont.) Page 19
still have to create 8 acres of wetland. They are still creating
the park? Councilman Noll said because its green space.
Councilman Snyder said okay, back on this. Mr. Malesker
said as far as, from what I understood from Jason, he contacted
Abel, Abel is the one that gave him the cost estimates all along.
Because he asked, I know he had asked what the savings was
going to be for using Red Lion as a dump site. He said $20,000.00.
I’m not sure what his cost estimate was before, but if this price
doesn’t reflect that $20,000.00 savings then I don’t know what
happened with Abel Construction. They are the low bid, that’s
who we got the estimate from, Jake Romig’s estimate was
85, it would be around 85, 86 if he were able to bid so that
would have saved some money. He was heavily involved with
design of. Councilman Allar asked and the specs clearly identified
where the dump site is. Mr. Malesker said oh yeah. Councilman
Snyder said and whose to say that they didn’t take advantage
of you making their job easier. They see that you did their work
for them. They would have been responsible for the dump site.
They would have charged us $100,000 anyways. You just provided
them with a dump site, so you just bumped up their profit. Mr.
Malesker said it’s a competitive bid so I don’t think they would
have. Councilman Allar said not at this time, not again, you
have a winter contract and you have a slow time. Councilman
Snyder said then I wonder if their $20,000.00 isn’t reflected in
the fact, of these others ones, $132, $135. Councilman Noll said
I think the prices are right where we thought they’d be. But
they’re a little higher than what we expected. We expected them
to be higher. I guess I’m not saying, we’re hoping they’d be
lower given anything. But this is. I’m not all surprised by it, I
just want to make sure. Mr. Malekser said giving the economy,
the time of the year that this is happening, traditionally contracts
don’t have a lot on their plate at this time. You would think
that the price, and with the amount of people bidding, 12 bidders,
you would have thought that the prices would have been lower.
Mr. Shearer said I think that the business that they’re lacking
in the commercial, sometimes it seems, that government are
the only ones doing the work. So they’re, I wouldn’t say their
fleecing us but they may have to pad a little bit off a government
contract because there is no other work to do. So. Councilman
Noll said you’re still getting, when you have 12 people, you are
getting the best price out there. Mr. Shearer said that’s what I
mean, you’re it , they’ve got to make their profit off of us.
Councilman Snyder said that’s what I’m saying, I mean the
idea is, had you not, gone and got that deal with Red Lion,
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 20
maybe the best deal we would have seen, would have been
$110,000.00, actually this one is $103. Councilman Allar
said it would have been $120,000.00, 20 plus whatever
figure is here. Councilman Noll asked what do anticipated
that is left for engineering, $5,000.00, $10,000.00. Mr.
Malesker said I would say between, depending on how
much you want to use us for construction inspection, contract
administration, doing the as built and stake out and that stuff,
is going to be between $4 and $5,000.00 for that and an
option would be to use Jake Romig for construction inspection
also. I know he bills at around $75.00 an hour. Councilman
Allar said the idea would, I think you were talking to Ferris
at Kinsley, is that Ferris, that Kinsley pays for it, because
they didn’t do it right the first time. Jake has been doing a lot
of things for us for free. Mr. Malesker said well what Ferris
wouldn’t pay for, he would pay for, the wetland mitigation
portion, is what they would be responsible for, this I’m
suggesting, Jake is, he is a contractor that is very well qualified
to do this work, he wasn’t able to do it, because he wasn’t
able to get a bid bond, part of that was because it was in
a floodplain, I would think EcoConstruction would be able
to get a bond in a flood plain. But anyway, in order help keep
prices down, although he’s $75.00 an hour, is about the same
as what we would have for a construction inspector out there
doing the work. But he would be able to insure that. Councilman
Allar said what I’m saying is, whatever the dollar amount it
doesn’t matter, if you were going to get Kinsley to hone up to
the fact that they brought in Davis Landscaping from Harrisburg,
that didn’t know what they were doing. Councilman Noll said
as opposed to construction inspection. Councilman Snyder said
they’re two different things. Mr. Malesker said it is. Councilman
Allar said but I’m looking at it as one big continuous project. Still
talking about a lot of costs on our discussions. That is going to have
to come from somewhere. Councilman Snyder said and that’s why
he’s been very laxed with getting backed to me, I’m sure he’s in
contact with his higher up, people who own Knisely, they have
been in contact with Davis Landscaping. Davis Landscaping has
been putting them on the back burner because the contract we
have is with Kinsley. He knows he’s on the hook for us, I told
him, I’ve been playing the good cop/bad cop type of thing. I’m
your friend I’m trying to get you in on this while its still amiable and
we’re all working together. If we have to, I’m afraid that council
is going to vote to sue. I said our contract is with you. I said I understand
that your contract is with Davis Landscaping, that’s why we’re coming
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 21
to you because our contract is with you. All we’re trying to
get people that messed up in the past, to own up to their
responsibilities and join our team now. I said we already
got, Rettew on board and they’re doing their part with what
they didn’t do. They’re willing to do that. I said now we
still have this problem of the wetland mitigation reports, for
the next five years. I said maybe, I’ll even throw this out,
I said go back to whomever and see if you want buy us out.
If you don’t want to be on the hook with Yoe Borough for
the next five years, I said go back, we paid you $4600.00 under
that contract. We don’t want to have to file complaint with
the county and get Kinsley Construction barred from bidding on
any CDBG grants because you screwed us out of our contract.
We don’t want play that. I said maybe you want to contribute
money toward the project and say we’re done. I’m sure I can
get that passed through council. I said you got to let me know
if you want to play our game or not. And he said I’ll get back to
you. Its probably been about month and half now. Councilman
Allar said the only reason I bring it up now is because when
Steve gave us the estimate of all this wetland mitigation, we’re
looking at $30,000.00 bullet that’s coming between our eyes.
You can’t kind of look at this as, if we can cut out a piece down
here, such as inspections, which you’re going to have to do
for five years. Then we can afford a little bit more of spending
it up front. You’re still reducing your engineering costs, that’s
all I’m trying to get at. And. Councilman Snyder said I think,
so, here’s and this is what, John Klinedinst, he said that’s where
we went down the slippery slope, with this whole project and
we never got here’s what we’re going get, here’s how much its
going to cost you. And that’s why, we’re still putting money in
and we don’t know like you’re saying, how much more do we
have to go. We don’t have, like what we got for the storm water
thing, which we’ll discuss, we got a $17,000.00 figure at the
end of the $17,000.00 this is the product we should have. You
know here we are, in the park, in with this project, we have
council people doing jobs of the engineer, you’re expecting
to get a $20,000.00 cost savings for doing part of their work,
for finding a dump site or whatever to help keep costs down.
It didn’t happen, now we want to blame Jason’s figures or
something, its like I don’t where it happened, I think what we
need. What Seth’s trying to get at, cause I think that’s where
your first original question was, how much more engineering
are we still looking to do this $98,000.00 project, how much
engineering do you think, what else has to be done with this
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 22
project. If we can say, this is what needs to be done, this is how
much its going to cost you. And we can say, we know we’ll have
$105,000.00 into it. That gives us $15,000.00 to go towards the
next project which I’m considering mitigation another project.
When Tom starts talking about the mitigation, trying to move
money here and there. We’re combining two projects and that’s
going to hurt you. I think what we need to do, is separate these
projects out and I think we need to look at Steve and say you
come back and tell us this is how much we’re going to charge you
to finish this project. We look at the wetland mitigation as a
separate project and then we have something to hold someone
accountable for. Because that’s the problem, accountable. Because
when you’re saying how much more money, inspections, and
stuff, right away Tom was thinking inspections of wetland mitigation.
You’re talking Jake Romig. And its like what inspections would
Jake being doing on this. I thought that was part of what your job
would be. Mr. Malesker said well yeah it would. Councilman Snyder
said so we need to clarify this right now, we need to accept the
bid, clarify what the scope of work is going to be and if you want
until December 1st to come back with a cost estimate and say this
is what we’ll do to finish up this project and this is what its going
to cost. And then we can see, hey, we’re just getting eaten alive
by these engineering fees, they’re not doing what they’re suppose
to, we’ll say no, this is what he said he was going to do and this
how much is going to cost us to get us to this point. Because to
be totally honest, I’m looking at this as a good figure, you’re looking
at it as bad figure. Cause I’m thinking if we have $20,000.00 in
for engineering, we’ve already paid that. Councilman Allar said
I’m only looking at it because we did this exercise, where we
asked, again, I said asked, go back touch the wall and come back
with a number, and that is brought before you. And we do this,
we actually do what you say, we do it every six months and then
we do it again. Councilman Noll said I think the important thing
is to have how much engineering we’ve got left so we know
we’ve got x amount of dollars left of this $120,000.00 that we
can put towards. Councilman Snyder said the next project.
Councilman Noll said the mitigation, and then, you know, do
what you’ve got to do to get the rest of the money in. Councilman
Snyder said when you’re talking, this is what is getting me all
confused, when you were talking about getting Jake in on some
of this, and I’m thinking, well what are you talking about because
I wasn’t thinking this get bid out. I thought it was your job. Mr.
Malesker said it would be, in trying to, we can easily do all
the construction inspection. But to get Jake, if you wanted Jake
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 23
involved in this project, he is qualified, he’s more qualified
to be the contractor but he could assist with the inspections
hoping to save a little money by using him. He. Councilman
Noll said I think a way to find out is to have you bid it and
Jake put a proposal in and see how it comes out. Mr. Malesker
said I don’t know he may not be willing to do all the contract
administration, you know to do the applications for payment
that kind of stuff, he would be focused on doing the actual.
Councilman Snyder said sort of, I guess what we’re getting at,
is we’re putting it out for bids without. Seeing if Jake can
come in a little cheaper. Councilman Allar said I think we’re
getting too deep into this, too complicated. Let’s stay with
the one, I don’t think the savings are going to be that critical.
Councilman Snyder said and that’s where I think we were
getting too confused. Councilman Noll said that’s why I
brought it up, I just wanted to make sure we were all on the
same page as where we are going. Mr. Malesker said I will
give you a detailed estimate like I did for the storm water,
breakdown exactly I think. I think last meeting I quoted a
price for the construction stake out, and the as built. The
secretary said yes, that was in there somewhere. Mr. Malesker
said I have those numbers, can’t find them, but I know, so
I’ll use those same numbers and I’ll add for. Councilman Snyder
said I think that’s the problem, when you said you gave numbers
for stake out, you gave numbers for whatever else you just said,
I think the problem is nobody knows, what else is it to the project.
Because that’s one thing, where you will get yourself into trouble.
If you say, its 1500 for this and 1500 for that, I know one thing
that I’d would do, I would think that is all we need to do to finish
the project. And then you come in with $3000.00 administrative
fee for lord knows what, I didn’t administration was in there, I
thought this was in there. So we need to hear from then, this is
what you need in engineering from us to finish out this project.
Councilman Noll said that makes it really easy, if we go outside
of the scope, it comes to in front of council, and we know why
we are paying extra. Councilman Snyder said exactly because
I think maybe where a lot of these problems get in, when you
just said that, I would have thought, well that’s all that’s needed
to do. I mean if there is surveying work, anything like that, that’s
not included then right away that opens up that can of worms,
then why is engineering higher that what you said it was going
to be. So. Mr. Malesker said I agree, we need to have a defined
scope budget and schedule, you need to see what the line items
are. Councilman Snyder asked did you need that? Mr. Malesker
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 24
said no, I’ll get that. Councilman Naylor said where are we at in
engineering for this project? The secretary said $30,000.00.
Mr. Malesker said I think this has been going on for five years.
The secretary said it will be four years next year. It started in
September 2005 with the first bill which was menial. The bills
really started popping in 2006. I started in August 2005, the bills
really started popping in April 2006. Councilman Snyder said
honestly, I think what our biggest problem was, I know we
all try, we just talked about budget, we all want to try help the
process along and see where we can cut costs I know I do that
with Pete on the legal end, I’ll do his paralegal work, or I’ll
draft up the ordinances, trying to keep the costs down. I think
where we find ourselves, is we end up trying help the engineer
along. And I think sometimes in the help, we get directed here,
we get directed there we turn our scope work around, it went
from a simple dredging so now we got, I can’t even call it
a forebay, it looks like a ten bay, I mean the whole total scope
of work has changed and I think that’s probably we get into
this $40,000.00 cost and we don’t even have a project bid out.
I think if we stick to, this is the project, you give us a cost, if
it goes over that, then you’re held accountable, if its not,
we want to know why, this gets us to the end product. Then if
we don’t get there then we have a reason to say why it didn’t.
Councilman Allar said the forebay does not contain information
that was concurred, it was the third edition of the forebay.
Councilman Snyder said yeah I know, I also know though,
that this at one time we were going to piggyback with York
Township. Councilman Allar said that had nothing to do with
our estimates. Councilman Snyder said no but that is part of the
$40,000.00 figure, as far as why, oh yeah that’s part of those
engineering things, he always put that in for the dams. Councilman
Allar said our estimates were always dreams of doing it outside,
our hard core numbers. Councilman Snyder said I’m not talking
about that, I’m talking about engineering costs, why we have
$40,000.00 engineering, its because we spent how many months,
with Jason contacting York Township to see if we could make a
go with. Councilman Allar said that’s not true, the only one
was me who contacted. Councilman Noll said I think this gets
back to what we’ve always needed to do and that’s why we’ve
had the problem with engineering, no defined scopes. As long as
we’re doing that, we can hold you accountable and hold us
accountable. Whatever that scope is, I think its just better for
everybody. Now if we find, that, say its another $10,000.00, we
really have a $110,000.00 project with what’s left with the
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 25
engineering and we have right now have $131,000.00 we get this
other money , its $160,000.00. So we have basically a $50,000.00
spread the dredging work, the reclamation work over at York
Township costs us $30,000.00, can we recoup the remaining
money from past spent engineering or have we lost that $30,000.00.
Can we go back and get that money and spend all the grant money
out? Have we lost that $30,000.00. Councilman Allar said we used
previous year’s money for engineering cost. Councilman Snyder
said do you understand the question? If we get that extra money
you requesting. Can we put some of these back? We paid for
this out of borough funds. Can we put some of that towards the
extra $46,000.00 or whatever you applied for? Mr. Malesker
said if its Growing Greener money it has to be for specific thing,
it would open up. Councilman Snyder said we could use. Mr.
Malesker said the money that’s coming from the other municipalities
is not earmarked for anything. Councilman Snyder said I was going
to say Ron Miller’s money could be used for that. Councilman Noll
said I just want to make sure that we direct our funds properly, depends
on how restricted. Councilman Allar said not just Ron Miller, we have,
I think we can use it any way we want to use it, $15,000.00, there is
$51,600.00 in the pocket for Growing Greener. $15,000.00 for
York County Intergovernmental Cooperation. There is $20,000.00
Yoe Borough, $20,000.00 York Township, $4,000.00 Dallastown,
$10,000.00 Red Lion, $2,400.00 from Windsor Township and $11,000.00
from Miller. So all those numbers except for that $51,600.00 we can
probably use anyway we want. Councilman Snyder said do you know
any time when we’re going to get that other fund. Mr. Malesker said
I was hoping to know before this meeting, I had contacted Felicia and
she never got back. Councilman Snyder said the one good thing is that
we have an early meeting coming up, December 1st. Councilman Allar
said the only thing I’m not sure about is intergovernment, if they
pay on receipt of bills. Councilman Snyder said well the worse that would
happen is between the intergovernment and the other $51,600.00 from the
state that would just cover their end. Councilman Noll said it would be
nice to get that money back because with the budget problem. $30,000.00
was already our problem. Councilman Snyder said you already when you
gave that $30,000.00 figure , then I contacted you and said Rettew is
willing to do some of this work and I said probably you can get Kinsley,
that’s going to reduce that $30,000.00 figure to begin with, so hopefully
we don’t have that whole $30,000.00. Councilman Allar said one thing
at a time, then I can work on the other. Councilman Snyder said , say
pay up, send us the money. Okay so then, you’ll get that for next month’s
meeting, that way everyone is clear on that. Councilman Noll said also,
are there any restrictive dates on this money , we have to spend it by
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 26
June 1st of next year. Mr. Malesker said not that I’ve been aware of,
I know Growing Greener, they’ve been waiting for the technical
clearance order from DEP which we sent them, we were hoping to
hear from the grant center before today’s meeting but they never
got back to us. Councilman Noll said none of them have a spent
by date on them, you have to spend it within 180 days. Mr. Malesker
said not that I’m aware of. If the project is awarded tonight it would
be spent very quickly because. Councilman Allar said the contractor
has sixty days, if it’s not done in 60 days, the contractor pays $500.00.
Mr. Malesker said for liquidated damages. Councilman Snyder said
okay. So you know what you’re going to have to do and then our
next thing is to accept the low bid from Abel Construction of
$98,592.75. A motion was made by Councilman Allar to accept the low
bid from Abel Construction of $98,592.75. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Howett. In favor: Councilman Snyder, Councilman
Manns and Councilman Naylor Abstaining: Councilman Noll
Councilman Manns asked if there were any subs for Abel. Mr. Malesker
said there are no subs on Abel. Councilman Manns said I just wanted
to make sure there were no other contractors. Councilman Snyder said
when it was mentioned 12 bidders, doesn’t this page say page 1 of 1
on it. There is two pages. Councilman Snyder said okay one abstention.
Councilman Snyder said motion carried.
Mitigation Mr. Malesker said while we are on the same subject, I have met with
Plan Jake to discuss the mitigation plan. Let this mitigation plan go to far
then have when York Township bids out their part, have Yoe Borough
lose control of what you want mitigated. What we had talked to
Danko about was pressing forward, getting the mitigation plan done,
and also have him forgive the borough for having the 120 days to
submit the mitigation plan. One can’t be submitted yet anyway,
the construction that York Township is going to do, take place,
until 2012. So there, there is so much time that’s still out there, so
none of this can even be constructed until then. So you can’t do
your draft conservation easement and those types of things until
then so there is such a time delay we wanted to get an official letter
from him asking that its, Yoe Borough is proceeding with the plan,
couldn’t been done within the 120 days. What I did, is attached a
letter that will need to be on Yoe Borough letterhead and then
coming from you, its at the end of the engineer’s report here. Councilman
Allar said its clearly a formality, Danko knows where we are at.
Mr. Malesker said it is a formality but that was a pretty straight
forward letter that came from them, I just want to make sure, which
came with at $27,000.00. The secretary said I’ll have that done tomorrow,
its on the top of my list, won’t be able to go to the mail until Thursday
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 27
but I’ll put it in anyhows and Sam you can come down tomorrow
around one to sign it. Councilman Snyder said if you could, since
we just talk this about cost estimates, make sure, I don’t know
if its been like that before, I know you have job labor codes and
stuff, make sure that once you break down how much its going
to cost to finish up this project. We need to keep wetlands, even
though we’re talking about one project, we need to keep wetland
mitigation as a separate cost factor than this. The secretary said
you are doing that. Mr. Malesker said yes, its two separate
project numbers. Councilman Snyder said when I thought about
that, that is one thing that is going to throw your numbers off.
You are still talking to Jake Romig. The secretary said you are
already incurring costs for that, you have been for the past
couple months. Mr. Malesker said so, with this, I don’t know
if Tom wants to have any input on this, it is a formality, I just
didn’t want. Councilman Snyder asked you saw that latest one.
Mr. Malesker said yes. Councilman Snyder said okay, that’ll
go out tomorrow. The secretary said the mail doesn’t go tomorrow
because its Veteran’s Day since I have copy these, and I’ll
copy one for you. Mr. Malesker asked if the secretary wanted
the electronic copy, the secretary said no, this will be fine. It
won’t take me long. No big deal. Councilman Allar asked Steve,
what would you guess the start date, rough guess? Mr. Malesker
said if we award it tonight, which we did, I’ll let them know
tomorrow. We’ll get the contract sent out, we give the contractor
fifteen days to get everything back to us. Then we review the
insurance make sure that is okay. So typically its around three
weeks. Then we talk with the contractor to do a NTP, a notice
to proceed, all that. So well within three to four weeks, he
could be started by the middle of December on this. Councilman
Allar said before we change topics, on the basin again just some
lose ends. The one reason for the start again, you were able to
contact Miller about the cameras, however you are going to handle
that. He definitely wants someone from Yoe there. This has to
be done before the construction. One item, I went through the blue-
prints and I didn’t see it, and I know we talked about it. Dana and I
talked about this. To do the maintenance, assuming we’re going
to use York Township, is working off that bank. We need some
sort of stone road there. I didn’t see that in there. I know we
will need it from time. Obviously, settlement is going to come in,
when there is a rain event so the bank is going to be mushy. So it
is going to be difficult to get anyone in to take care of it. I don’t
know what kind of size that we’re going to make this. While the
contractor is out, seems to me that we should do it now rather have
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 28
than have him go home then Yoe Borough is going to have to do it.
Mr. Malesker asked you mean instead of there being a temporary
construction area there be a permanent with the stone? Councilman
Allar said some way that we can dredge from the bank without
going into the basin and getting stuck. You were at the meeting that
we had with York Township, where they have that one machine
with the arm. That would be operated from the bank, but if the bank
is swampy, its probably not going to be able to get out there. I’m
just throwing it out there, it seems to me, there could be a better
foundation for the trucks to do that. I didn’t see it in the blueprints,
unless I missed it. I know Dana looked at it too. Mr. Malesker said
I don’t think allowed for any. Councilman Allar said it could be a change
order, its not a big deal just. Mr. Malekser said just a matter of putting
in some additional stone out there. Councilman Allar otherwise, I mean,
I know you are focusing on getting the dirt out, I’m looking further
down the road. Mr. Malesker said in that area where the outfall from
across the street, where there are those stones, a lot of those are going
to have to be excavated out, and we’re allowing more stones to be
put in. Those could be moved up the bank to stabilize the bank. There
shouldn’t be a change order to do that. Cause we were hoping to reuse
that, because those are R 5’s. Councilman Allar said I’m sure Red Lion
doesn’t want those boulders. Mr. Malesker said no, we want to keep
those on site anyways. Councilman Allar said and we don’t certainly
want to move them away. So that would very work its just somehow
we’ve got to make sure the contractor understands that. Mr. Malesker
said that’s just. Councilman Allar said and I don’t know if that needs
a change order. Mr. Malesker said no, that wouldn’t need a change
order. I would have confirm that with Abel, that requires no real
additional effort on their part. Councilman Allar said there are two
other things again, we talking the same area that bank. One of them is
the guide wire for that utility pole, its probably going to be where
these trucks are operated. So at some point, I don’t know who, some how
we need to contact the utility people to come and see what other
arrangements need to be made. I’m not sure if we can go up and down
that bank without hitting that wire. Mr. Malesker said none of the
contractors brought that up and saw that as a potential problem. So I
guess, what they are thinking, they can avoid that, I mean. Councilman
Allar said I’m not talking about construction, I’m talking about
maintenance. I’m talking about full time. Indefinitely into the future.
Councilman Noll said just be careful with that, if you are talking about
moving a guide wire that can be very costly. Mr. Malesker said yeah.
Councilman Allar said I’m just putting that out there. Mr. Malesker
said utility relocation can be very expensive and can take some time
also. Councilman Allar said we are building this thing, and we have
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 29
to maintain it, if we don’t have maintain it we will be right back where
we were five years ago. So. Its always been there, I’m not bringing
up anything new. Goes with the whole concept of sediment control
and then removing it. Mr. Malesker said that is something we could look
into as part of this contract, I’m not sure what utility. Do you know
owns the pole Dana? Mr. Shearer said it’s a Met Ed pole. Councilman
Allar said and similar to that is the fencing. Again with talking to
Dana, it probably should be reset back, would you say three feet, four
feet? Mr. Shearer said we could probably use some more room there to
work on the bank. Councilman Allar said we’re not talking about taking
the fence down permanently, taking it down for construction purposes.
At some point its still, it needs to somehow be recessed back and the
line. Councilman Noll said is it part of the contract? Councilman Allar
said it could be part of a change order. Councilman Noll said it’s a
chain link fence. Councilman Allar said we’ve got a 120 to 130 foot
run there. Mr. Malesker said if they need to take the fence down for
any reason, I’m sure part of it will be. It’s easy enough to ask if they
can put it back in another location. Councilman Allar said its just,
to keep in mind that, if they do take it down and we don’t tell them,
they’re going to put it back to where it was. They’re going to go home
and we’re going to have to move it. Mr. Malesker said by moving it
to a different location it could mean you need some additional fence.
Councilman Allar said probably. Mr. Malesker said there would be
a change order, either a change order or the borough busy the fence,
which would probably be cheaper, just have them put it in. Councilman
Allar said its something for discussion now, sometimes they sub the
fence out to someone else. If you don’t talk about it. Mr. Malesker
said this would be something to talk about at a preconstruction
meeting. To make sure that we have, all these things on the agenda,
and we talk about all these items. Councilman Naylor asked how
many feet of this fence has to be moved back? Councilman Allar said
well its, I don’t know. I’m going to let Dana tell us that. Mr. Malesker
said and Dana will be part of those meetings, I’m sure he is out
there daily when they are doing the work. Councilman Allar asked do
you have the, with the blueprints there you can see how much the
fence line is? The J hooks, if that is what you call them, they run pretty
much from where the stream enters our property all the way down to
the spillway, and then they wrap around. You’ll looking at about that
whole fence line, because you’re going bring a truck in, scoop it out,
drop the truck back a little bit. So you’re work that whole line, if you
look at the blueprint, there is somewhere about 10 to 12 of these. Mr.
Malesker said the only ones that are meant to be cleaned are the first
three big ones. The other ones are designed to be self cleaning. So
the ones that have the sediment traps in are the big ones and those are
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 30
the ones in the first three bays. Councilman Allar asked aren’t the
other ones going to collect at all? Mr. Malesker said well they will
collect some but the idea they will collect behind the big rock but
those won’t need to be cleaned like the other ones. The intent
is that sediment will build up and once it gets to the top will wash
over. Councilman Allar asked and where will it wash to coming
across the basin? Mr. Malesker said well, it will go downstream,
it is meant to be self cleaning. Councilman Allar said its not
going to necessarily leave the basin. Mr. Malesker said if the
channel stays the way it is designed to stay, it should stay in
the channel. Councilman Allar asked you don’t think that its
better to remove it? Mr. Malesker said well, I think at sometimes,
that it will need to be removed, but its not designed, its not a
routine thing. When Jake and Jason did the design of the first
three J hooks, those three are designed to trap the sediment, the
other ones will get sediment but they aren’t designed. Councilman
Allar said once they fill up, the purpose to trap it is no longer
functional. Councilman Naylor said those others ones will need
to be cleaned out too, some point and time. Councilman Allar said
and we don’t know when that is, how deep rain event and how
often. And how many new houses go up. Councilman Naylor said
that is in anticipation but not sure how often. Councilman Snyder
said right now considering we’re talking about the original cost
that came in, I’d hate to be putting in a $5000.00 change order
to put fence back on something you’re telling us isn’t designed,
it is designed to be self cleaning that we shouldn’t have to worry
about. Councilman Naylor said we’ll that is fine, how much fence
do we have to move, how many posts do we have to pull out to
accomplish it. Councilman Snyder said just access to the first
three weirs is what you’re saying. Mr. Malesker said yeah. And
there’s different ways that you can go about cleaning those outs.
I know talking about using a back hoe, but you can do it by
suction. You can simply put a filter bag on the bank and then you
put the hose in the water suck everything out that is contained in
the dirt bag, let the water decant and then you have a bag full of
organic material that any farmer would want. Councilman Allar
said you’re talking about equipment that we would have to get
in order to do it. Mr. Malesker said yes, unless York Township
has something like that, that they use for their inlets. I know there
are some of the bigger municipalities that use equipment like
that. Councilman Naylor said my question was going to be with
what York Township is offering, how far out these weirs that
we need to reach with a back hoe? Councilman Allar said you
can’t you have to pull the guide in and out. Mr. Malesker said
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 31
and we went over that with Bob Miller. Councilman Allar said
Miller thought he could reach it. Mr. Shearer said if you look at
the bottom item on my report. After talking to Tom about this, and
just wanted to touch base with York Township I had talked with
Tim Poff. I know he hadn’t been involved in any of the conversations.
But he did follow up with it, and did the work for me and talked
to Scott. And Scott went to Elizabeth. From what I got back from
Tim is, the township is committed the money for the dredging that
they said they would, the township is committed to their share of
the maintenance agreement, that is all that the township is committed
to at this time. The township is not committed at this time to bring
the back hoe or the manpower down there. The maintenance expenses
is going to come back on us, they will share it. Councilman Noll said
the reason that they have not committed is, my suspicion is they
want to rewrite the maintenance agreement. Councilman Snyder said
that may be our best bargaining chip to rewrite the maintenance
agreement. When Dana first told me that. I thought okay, doesn’t
surprise me. We have a duty we knew that was one of the things that
you brought up Seth when we decided to go with this fore bay concept.
Where are we getting ourselves with maintenance and upkeep in the
future. We knew that there was this unknown variable out there. We
thought we could work with York Township, they said no. Okay,
we still have an unknown factor, its going to unknown factor. Steve
is saying we only have to maintain these first three weirs and after
that it should be self cleaning. So York Township doesn’t want to
be part in it, they don’t have to be a part in it. If we have to contract
this out, and its $10,000.00 a year, we bill them back $3333.00. You
know, we bill back one third. And when they finally get to a point,
when they say our third is that expensive, maybe you could offer to
help or something. Maybe that’s when they open it back up but for
right now, it may cost $10,000.00 to maintain it, may cost us
$3000.00 a year to maintain it. Until they’re built and working we
don’t know what its going to be and what its going to entail. Like I
even told Dana, they may change from rainfall to rainfall. You may
get in there and have to clean them out every significant rainfall or
you find its just once a season. Councilman Naylor said from where
they are back and sit and reach out, you may fourteen to sixteen
feet with an extend a hoe and that’s reaching out level. Councilman
Snyder said and I think that is how it was designed to be able to
reached with a back hoe, those first three. Mr. Malesker said yeah.
Councilman Allar said keep in mind, Seth, Steve and myself we did
meet with Elizabeth. As well as Miller. And at that time, they had
no problem. Councilman Snyder said and now you see why I said
before, and forgive me for having someone who works with the
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 32
township, you can’t always trust and count on until it actually happens.
They are willing to work with you and I love working with them but
sometimes things happen outside their control that all of sudden just
like that it changes and you have to learn to adapt. This time we’re
adapting. They’ll be a reason, like you say, I don’t what to say, its
speculative at this point on what its going to cost. Just like with
the mowing, it started out with contracting out the mowing, they
saw it was expensive, lets take it ourselves. I think that is what will
happen with this, they’ll see there is cost factor there. They’ll see
that they have people standing around, and this equipment standing
around and they’ll say we can help cut costs by offering it. And I
think in a year or two, you might see it come around. For whatever
reason its not in the plan right now and at this point the thing isn’t even built. We’re going to have that problem next year with budget and
we’re going to sit here and say how much will we budget. Councilman
Allar said its worth talking about, we have a contract and we have
keep in mind because of the maintenance. We need to make sure
that there is something in the contract that we can change that’s all.
Otherwise we’re going to build it, and then we’re going to find that
we can’t maintain, we can’t reach it, there’s no equipment out there,
its incredibly expensive. I’m just saying these are things. Councilman
Snyder said we might have to bid it out, get someone like Fitz and
Smith in, on a yearly basis. We don’t know. Councilman Allar said
said if its on a yearly basis, we’re screwed, we haven’t done anything.
Councilman Snyder said until it is in place and working we don’t
know. Its not like there is a major development going that’s going
to be dumping a lot of silt. The silt’s already there, its going to be
wash out for upstream so you may find out on a annual basis, we
don’t need. Councilman Allar said they’re still building the Paddock,
that’s development. Councilman Snyder said I mean, we really
don’t know. Councilman Noll said one thing I don’t how we’ve
got our budget set up, I know we’ve got in terms of maintenance
up there, should we have a separate code for that type of
maintenance to say this is what is costing us. That way we’re
not trying to extrapolate the money. Councilman Snyder said
she actually breaks that down on an annual basis, when costs
come in she’ll break it down and bill that out to each municipality
so we’ll be able to see what the dredging is going to cost, that’s
going to be another cost factor that she’s going put in. The
secretary said I bill York Township and Dallastown on a yearly
basis. Councilman Noll said I’m just saying when you do that,
that I’d list the specific task too. The secretary said its charged
to dam maintenance. I’m going to show you Dana’s wages,
equipment, mowing, cleaning out the weirs. Councilman Snyder
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 33
said I think what you want, she’s going to show. Councilman
Noll said you may be doing it already. The secretary said
you won’t see the cleaning of weirs/dredging until January
2011, I’ll be working on 2009 in January/February of 2010.
It will be broken out, 1/3 will be shown and you’ll see where
I have to bill, what it costs the borough, what it costs Dallastown
and what it costs York Township as part of the maintenance
agreement. Councilman Noll said that way we have a cost
history. Councilman Snyder said we will see that it costs
$4,000.00 for dredging. The secretary said next year for your
budget, you might have to up you dam maintenance again, from
the $3000.00 to $7000.00. Councilman Snyder said we did
up it to $25,000.00. The secretary said if you are going to
be starting your project in mid December 2009. Councilman
Allar said I’m going to give you a letter, if he is going to
sign the contract I’m going to give you a letter next week.
The secretary said you’re darn right, because we need to
have the money in place if we are going to start getting bills.
Councilman Allar said if we sent the letter out, it doesn’t mean
that the check is going to come out in the following mail.
The secretary said I would help that money would come in
by end of December. The secretary said the bill will go out
in February to Dallastown and York Township. Councilman
Noll said we need to get this out by December 1st. Councilman
Allar said I’ll get it out but I’m saying I don’t know when
we’ll get the check. The secretary said we want to get it in,
in this budget year. Councilman Snyder said I’m sure they’ll
want to pay it in this budget year too. The secretary said
by December 31st, yes, we hope they do.
Park Mr. Malesker said lets go on to the park then. As long as there
no other questions about the flood impoundment.
Flood Councilman Allar said but there is. If you read the letter from
Impound- the Corps of Engineers last month. They talk about 1.53 acres
ment of impact. I know we were talking about no sediment control.
Mr. Malesker said no E and S measures over an acre, this
does not follow under York County Conservation’s jurisdiction.
Councilman Allar said from what I can tell, looking at other
C. S. Davidson’s documents it does look like. Mr. Malesker
said the York County Conservation district has no jurisdiction,
Eric Jordan has no business being out there. Not when the
Army Corps is involved. Councilman Allar said I just wanted
to make sure.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 34
Park Mr. Malesker said unto the park. Since our last meeting we did
find out that we did get the additional CDBG money. So I’ve
been working with Seth on getting the pavilion and a lot of
other work back into the contract so, Seth has been doing a
real good job on staying on top of things at the park. He went
through and basically, we discussed adding and deducting
certain things. So with the addition, of the additional money,
there is a change order attached to the engineer’s report here.
For a change order, for adding the pavilion back in, I can go
down through this individually if you want. Councilman Snyder
said no. Mr. Malesker said the bottom line is the net change
in contract price, $53,804.00 is. Councilman Snyder asked
will I’ll be getting one to sign or is there. I’ll send one of those
for you to sign. So, if everybody agrees to add this, I need a motion
to approve change order number 4 in the amount of $53,804.00
for the park project. Councilman Snyder said just one question on
that, we got 48, correct. Mr. Malesker said right. Councilman Snyder
said the difference between the 53 we’re adding and the 48 we got,
is that from the ten thousand that. Mr. Malesker said yes. Councilman
Snyder said so the balance between there is like five thousand and
some change, so that’s the balance you were talking about at the
last meeting, and still. Councilman Noll said there is still a cushion.
Councilman Snyder said a cushion, okay. I just wanted to clarify
that. Councilman Allar said how are we doing with that in lieu
of with that $5000.00 with Kinsley, are we trying to put that in.
Councilman Noll said that wouldn’t give us anything, that’s already.
Councilman Snyder said excuse me a minute, before you finish
that, you can discuss that while I’m signing this. A motion was
made by Councilman Howett to sign Change Order 4. The motion
was seconded by Councilman Allar. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said motion carried. Councilman Noll said it was in kind if
we needed to make up money somewhere, we got everything funded.
So we don’t need that $5000.00. Sam, I’m going to pass these around,
three different packets of pictures, this was taken about 3, 3 ½ weeks
ago up in the park. This was taken about a week and half ago when
they were doing all the work at Philadelphia, bringing the piping
and the boxes . The final was taken on Sunday, to get a close idea
of where everything is. And Sandy you can hold to these. The
secretary said sure. They will be sitting out here on the table for
everyone else to look at it. Mr. Malesker said the next item on the
park, the contractor has submitted, Application for Payment
Number 2 in the amount of $35,291.25. So I need a motion to
approve, for application for payment number 2 for Legend
Construction. The engineer actually signs that, and I have already
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 35
given Sandy. The secretary said you just need a copy of this
top page. Mr. Malesker said yes. Councilman Snyder said
Seth, has been doing an awesome job keeping on top of this,
I know Dana has been doing an awesome job keeping on top
of this. They’ve been doing great work. Mr. Malesker said
I agree. Councilman Snyder said its amazing how they’re
johnny spot with, is there any discussion why we can’t pay
the next $35,000.00? A motion to pay Payment Number 2
was made by Councilman Howett. The motion was seconded
by Councilman Noll. All in favor. Councilman Snyder said
motion carried. Mr. Malesker said we had a bi weekly
construction meeting out there today, the Co Stars were
suppose to be out there on site already. Earlier in the project,
we had mentioned to them that we’re going to be ready
for them November 1st. I conveyed that to Co Stars, and I
had talked to him the last week in October and had said
we’re going to be ready for you, are you going to be here?
He said, you may have told me dates, but dates, are usually
delayed so I pay no attention to it, so no, can’t be there
November 1st. So he is planning on be there sometime this
week, he will be mobilized, the playground equipment should
start showing up either later this week or the week after.
Councilman Noll said Steve also complained to Co Stars,
they had five weeks notice. Mr. Malesker said we called
Co Stars, and we wanted a complaint documented that, this
is not acceptable, we had a schedule set, we conveyed
that schedule to the contractor. Councilman Snyder said
there are fines for not being completed in time. Mr. Malesker
said right, because our back is up against the wall in this
project and we conveyed that to them, they sub the work out
to this George Ely Construction. I guess George Ely is actually
subbing that out to whoever is going to be showing up to
do that work. And that guy, he’s the one that does the playground
equipment, apparently he’s very busy, he wouldn’t had an
opportunity to work that into his schedule anyway. The secretary
said so if we’re not too speedy in paying them that’s fine, that’s
coming from DCNR money which we don’t have anyhow. Mr.
Malesker said I did discuss that with them that if need be, we
submitted the contract, I talked to DCNR about whether they’re
going to issue 90% of the payment or if we have to apply for
pieces at a time. They said if you can prove expenditure of the
$140,000.00 we can cut the 70. We gave them contract documents,
we gave them all of our engineering invoices so we gave them
enough. We haven’t heard back if they’re going to do that, but in
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 36
the event they don’t do that, Co Stars know they won’t get paid
until. Councilman Snyder said we get the final check from them.
Mr. Malesker said its going to go directly to DCNR, DCNR will
cut them a check. The secretary said that will be less work for
me then. Mr. Malesker said it will paid directly, it will be
partial payments. They said that’s okay, they don’t have a problem
with that. Anything else on the park? We did get a letter from
DCNR, I attached that to the engineer’s report. So if we anticipate
not being done by 12/31/2009, you should talk to your Bureau
Project Manager. If you want a time extension to the grant agreement,
you must submit a written request, we may or may not be able to
approve an extension. And talking about this with Seth, we think
we’re going to be okay but, we can ask for a thirty day extension
just to be safe. That’s up to you, if you don’t think its necessary.
Councilman Noll said we talked about just sending it in, it doesn’t
necessarily mean its going to be approved but, this is the other
thing that came up, and I understand where Legend Construction
is coming from, his question was if we go a couple days past
the due date, Co Stars backed them up, a lot of their work depended
on getting the playground equipment in and the fact that its
connected, rain, snow God only knows what can happen in December.
I said well at this point I don’t want approve that, but if council would
want to look at that especially if we get into December. He has $500.00 a
day in liquid damages that he’s looking at in December. He told us
he’d be done by the end of the year without a problem, just to give
him a couple extra days. Councilman Snyder said the biggest problem
is them, we couldn’t give them a couple of extra days, because they
wouldn’t spend the money. Councilman Noll said the only thing that
Mitch was asking, was maybe till Christmas, if things are needed.
He’ll know better by the beginning of December. Councilman Snyder
said if you feel the need to submit the request to cover, I was
actually surprised to see that it came from them. So if it came from
them, they may be more than likely, especially since you’re only
asking for thirty days. Mr. Malesker said we have been working with
this Beth, who they reference in this letter, she is the one we have
worked with, with the payment. I actually this afternoon I got a call
from DCNR to schedule inspection. They wanted the final inspection,
November 17th. I said well no. Councilman Snyder said don’t they
have your schedule? Mr. Malesker said they do, that was submitted to
them. Councilman Snyder said I don’t think November 17th was
anywhere on the paper that said completion date. Mr. Malesker said
so, she’s obviously. Councilman Snyder said do you need a motion.
Mr. Malesker said I don’t think I need, if you all agree that’s worth
doing. Councilman Snyder asked does council want Steve to, I saw
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 37
Seth was nodding his head since he’s the lead on this, I would
follow his recommendation. The secretary said I think it would be
a good idea, I know I can’t make a motion but I think it is a good
idea. A motion was made by Councilman Howett for Steve to
request a thirty day extension request to DCNR. The motion was
seconded by Councilman Noll. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said motion carried. The secretary said that Co Stars
delaying, that’s not Legend’s fault so. You know if you are
happy with the cooperation, I don’t see why you wouldn’t
want to help them out. Councilman Noll said they’re doing
a job for us, and we go through the submittal process for the
most part. Mitch, he’s very straight up.
147 S. Mr. Malesker said the next item, I included in the packet, the
Main Street correspondence I went through for 147 S. Main Street. How I
met with the guy from PENN DOT in Dallastown and had
asked for if we could get an extension on the October 30th
date that they put on the property owners that live there.
He said he was going to look into, it ended up, he was
transferred without doing anything. I talked with Chris
Leiphart, who is now took Cliff’s place as the assistant
York County maintenance engineer. So,went over all this
with Chris, who gave us an extension basically for whatever
time we need to look into the situation there. He just wants
me to update him in two weeks. I will get back to him. From
when I wrote this, I know the easement hadn’t been signed
so you did send out letter which was helpful, because then
we got the signed easement. I don’t know where that stands
with you, I don’t know if coordinated anything with Teli.
Mr. Shearer said he is trying to work around his leaf pick
schedule right now. He’s got a lot to pick up. Soon as he
can get a handle on that, then, we’re going to get up there
and get that located. The secretary said and Mrs. Johnson
came down here to the office and wanted to know if she
got an extension and what I did, I gave her a copy of the
top part of the email and I mailed it to her. She knows that
the extension is granted, keep this information, and keep
on top of it and stop back if she needs anything else. She already
by that time, she knew that we got the signed easement. Mr.
Malesker said while I had Chris on the phone, I brought
Patch on the patch on George Street. He’s going to look into the history
George St. that was leading up to why the patch was there because
he’s new back in this area, doesn’t have all the background.
Said he’s going to look into that. Again I expressed that
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 38
Yoe Borough should not be responsible for paying the
initial $4000.00 because they did not authorize anything.
He agreed, he said, sounds like the Yoe Sewer Authority
authorized the work so they should be the ones that should
be responsible for paying that. As far as addressing the
leak there, he wants to look at that some more. He did say
that he will take care of the patch. Councilman Naylor
said in terms that they’ll pave it. Mr. Malesker said yes.
Councilman Naylor said but they won’t investigate the
pipe problem any further. Mr. Malesker said he’s going to
look into the background there, I said that there is pipe
going through there. He is going to try to get the pictures
that were floating around. I said that is not the borough’s
pipe, they don’t have any responsibility to do anything with
that, because its not part of their storm water. He knows that
there is an inlet, near there. But that pipe does not have
anything to do with the inlet. He’ll be looking into that.
As long as patch gets repaired that’s the big thing. Councilman
Snyder said accept for Aaron once they’re paid for the work
they already did, they’re going to end up suing, because no
one is budging. So we all get lumped into. Mr. Malesker said
I sent that letter out last month, I never heard back from anybody.
Councilman Snyder said well, yeah the only thing I know, I
would personally said, I think it’s the sewer authority’s
responsibility. I saw that you didn’t say that, you are probably
right you shouldn’t be pointing the finger at somebody but.
I’ve heard through grapevine, that our sewer authority is saying
its not their responsibility. Don’t ask me why, I’m not on
the sewer authority, they discussed it at their meeting and
they said they don’t feel responsible to pay for it. I said okay.
It was because they thought that lateral on their approval,
let this person connect, it what was causing the problem.
Therefore they got York Township involved, and what’s his
name from C. S. Davidson working on behalf of the sewer authority
through York Township because Yoe Borough Sewer Authority
allowing to connect into the interceptor. But it was that connection
that was bad, so York Township guy that called Aaron back in.
Its all related to what they thought bad York/Yoe Borough sewer
connection. Councilman Naylor said they initiated the work.
Councilman Snyder said that’s what I would have thought.
I’m mean. And maybe it will get to the point where Yoe Council,
has to send Yoe Sewer Authority an official letter asking them
to pay for it. But. The secretary said you may want to do that
before their December meeting that’s coming. The sewer authority
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 39
meets again in December. Councilman Snyder said how bout,
because this has all been engineer to engineers, a lot of them
has been flying from, what’s his name from C. S. Davidson.
Mr. Malesker said Rick Resh. Councilman Snyder said Rick
Resh, a lot, what I’m saying is a lot of these communications
has been between engineer’s what if council makes a motion
to say, our engineer on behalf of council should send a letter
to Dennis Sarpen who is the engineer for the sewer authority
saying we feel that the sewer authority should be responsible
for this compensation to Aaron Enterprises. Well I mean that
way we know its brought up and there is documentation.
Councilman Allar said you can also do a letter from yourself
to Rodney Smith and remind him that it was the sewer authority
that authorizes. Councilman Snyder said it could but I’m thinking
that’s no different than me talking, I talked to Rodney down
at the polls. Councilman Allar said you want to make a track record.
Councilman Naylor said the documentation, unless you have someone
else document it for you. Councilman Snyder said I could, since
these engineers knew whose involved and who is requesting the
work done. Rick Resh knows that he was acting even though the
request from Rick Resh came to Aaron, he knows he was working
on behalf of the Yoe Borough Sewer Authority. Mr. Malesker said
no, he was working for the township. The secretary said the York
Township Sewer. Councilman Snyder said because he was contacted.
Mr. Shearer said no, no, no. Rick Resh okay is representing York
Township Sewer Authority, its their interceptor. Okay. Which
a Yoe Borough customer was tapped into. Mark Clark who works
for Dennis Sarpen from Holley is the one that made contact with
Aaron Enterprises. So, there was a representative from James
Holley Associates that contacted Aaron Enterprises, I should say
who contacted the builder of 39 W. George Street. Who brought in.
Councilman Snyder said and this is why I’d like the letter to come
from the engineer because they know who requested the contact
and who requested the work and from what council is hearing I would
say our engineer and go back and make that contact known to Dennis
Sarpen that this is what we understood and we feel that, Yoe Borough
is not responsible for it but if anybody based on this information,
Yoe Borough Sewer Authority should compensate back Aaron
Enterprises. Councilman Allar said and send a copy to Aaron
Enterprises. Councilman Naylor said at least jump through hoops
to make sure somebody, it shouldn’t be our responsibility to spend
time and resources to find out whose going to pay for it. Councilman
Snyder said exactly, and Aaron there sitting there and they are getting
angered. Mr. Malesker said the borough is already on record with,
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 40
the previous letter saying Yoe Borough does not feel responsible
for paying for that. Councilman Snyder said now is just the
extra step, if I’m hearing from a consensus of council that our
own sewer authority should be paying for it. Its like can we
help the situation along because you know we’re going named
in that law suit, because our name is right up there with every
one else. And do we really, we didn’t budget that much in our
legal fees for next year. If we can stave this off by putting a little
of our own pressure on our sewer authority, it is a well spent
$35.00 for your secretary or whatever to send them a letter with
the history saying that we feel its their responsibility. Councilman
Allar said and get the sewer authority involved. Councilman Snyder
said hopefully they see that their parent is looking over them and
saying even we think you should be paying for this. And you know
the history that Dana just talked about. Mr. Malesker said yeah, Mark
Clark sent I believe he had sent like a log of what happened. I only
know about it, because I saw that, I wasn’t involved with any of that
stuff. It was just sent to me. Councilman Snyder said I don’t think that
York Township just because they own the interceptor, I know that
Rick Resh was involved, I don’t think that they should be on the hook.
Mr. Malesker said talking to Rick Resh I know York Township didn’t
even want to spend the effort to send a letter because its totally
not our responsibility, we’re not even going acknowledge this by
sending a letter. Councilman Snyder said I know that but at the same
point, Aaron is out $5000.00 when they saw it wasn’t anything that
they did and they want compensated for it. And that’s going to bring
on a law suit. And York Township attitude of let them sue us, if a
$35.00 letter can maybe put some pressure on our sewer authority
to pony up, it saves it all. That’s how I look at it. The worse that
happens is that we’re setting ourselves up for our defense, if it
gets that far. This is bull crap. This should not have gone this far,
the sewer authority should have just paid the thing. I don’t know
why they are being so ignorant but. Mr. Malesker said this happened
in the summer time. Councilman Snyder back in the beginning of
August, and Aaron was johnny on the spot, they’re told that there
was a problem with they’re sewer connection and they were johnny
on the spot. And when they saw it wasn’t their problem, they even
called back if I remember correctly, what do you want us to do, because
they were willing to repair to work just not pay for it. And when they
saw was taking, its not our responsibility, they say we’ll close it up
but we want paid. And that’s all they, which is why they didn’t close
it up to spec. Mr. Malesker said that’s because there was a storm coming
too. Councilman Snyder said I don’t blame them, I would’ve wanted
to know that I’ve got did do. I mean, its ridiculous. Mr. Shearer said
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 41
well I think the sewer authority should pay them because they
contacted them to do the work and I think the sewer authority
needs to figure out whose responsibility it is to pay it because
in my opinion it should come back to PENN DOT. PENN DOT
laid off unto the sewer authority because they claiming it was
an utility problem, okay. Its not a utility problem, it’s a problem
with drainage underneath the road. In my estimation it comes
back to PENN DOT. But, in the long run, somebody is going to
get sued it’s a just a matter of who files the paper work first.
Councilman Snyder said and that’s why I said at this point, because
the sewer authority is the one that directed them to do the work,
I think they should pay for it, get Aaron out of the picture, and
then let the sewer authority go back and fight with PENN DOT.
I don’t know if the sewer authority, actually realizes what the
whole history of this was, I know paperwork went to Dennis
Sarpen but for them to just arbitrarily say we’re not paying, I
do not know if they really realize how this request came through.
And that’s why I said if you can write that letter, add those
points in there, and say Yoe Borough Council wishes Dennis
Sarpen to bring this up at the next sewer authority meeting which
is scheduled for December 10th. Councilman Allar said and
send a copy to the Chairman. Councilman Snyder said Rodney
Smith and courtesy copy Rick Resh and Aaron Enterprises too.
Councilman Allar said you talked to Rodney,what did he say?
Councilman Snyder said he said we’re not paying for it. Councilman
Allar said he knows, does he understand. Councilman Snyder said
yeah, he said we discussed it at the last sewer authority meeting,we’re
not paying for it. Mr. Shearer said Yoe Sewer Authority thinks that
that’s our pipe. Councilman Snyder said uh huh, they said we don’t
have anything to do with a water pipes. They say why aren’t you going
after the water authority. Councilman Snyder said I’m not getting
into this. Too late at night, and I’m not getting into this. Mr. Shearer
said they think its our drain pipe. Councilman Snyder said that’s
exactly what I told him, I said cause it was like five of eight, we
have an election to close tonight. Mr. Malesker said the original
excavation work. Councilman Allar said nice try, but it doesn’t
sound like that letter is going to do anything. Councilman Snyder
said hopefully, it Dennis Sarpen gets it and Dennis Sarpen as an
engineer has some reasoning and says you know what and brings
it up, and then you have Mike Craley there, the attorney, and saying
if Mike Craley knows that their own representative knows that
they authorized the work. He’s going to say, that puts us in a little
bit of litigious position here. Hopefully some of them have some
common sense. I don’t what the authority members are saying.
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 42
Councilman Allar said you want to take the time to go to the
sewer authority meeting. Councilman Snyder said I see what a
letter does first, worse that happens I go back in March. We’re
getting them. Councilman Allar said plenty of time to get a
lawsuit. Councilman Snyder said hopefully this stave’s it off.
Storm- Mr. Malesker said last thing is, remember from the last time about
water stormwater study. I’m not sure if you wanted to discuss that any
Study further, engineering estimate for a borough wide storm water system
condition assessment. Councilman Snyder said everyone have a month
to digest that. Couple questions that came up in the meantime. Sandy
had a meeting with Gerry Wagner.The secretary said Gerry Wagner was here last Friday, he’s the municipal service rep for our district. I brought
this up about three times with different people on the equipment balance
on our report that we file yearly. Two of them said that is had to be used
for equipment. It came out that, we have it available to use for equipment.
We don’t have to use it for equipment. Councilman Allar said a big
difference. The secretary said it is a big difference and I got it from him
and its now part of the minutes. He said what happens is, if you have
big project and you use it, you can take it down to $10,000.00, you can
take it down to a dollar, you can take it down to zero. But keep in mind
once you use it, you build it up gradually every year, 20% of your
allocation, it could take you years to build it back up. But it does not
have to be used for equipment, it can be used for other things as long
as it is approved to be used. Councilman Snyder said that frees up
more for our liquid fuels so. The secretary said about $35,000.00.
Councilman Snyder said I don’t know what other people’s thoughts
about it were, basically, the other thing was, because it would be coming
out of liquid fuels, to do it in one year. Instead of multiple years.
Now your proposal, I’m just going to throw seventeen thousand and
some change, cause I don’t remember the actual amount, that gets us
to a point, so that would be that is the project, that gets us to that
point. What council decides to go from there, would be a whole
number project. So is there a way, because I think one of our
funding sources, H2O grant, which has to be, August deadline. If
he recommending a project, that would be one project, that would
be completed in one year, we wouldn’t want have any billable
hours until January 1. If we went through with it, could you get us
the results in time that we could stay make a decision, maybe have
a month to think about it, to apply for the H20 grant because that’s
getting us into a whole other step. In other words council, understand
that, that $17,000 figure only identifies the problem and gives us
a course of action. It does not give us, if we want to apply for the H20
grant, that’s more engineering dollars, if we want to proceed with
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 43
the project that’s more engineering dollars, that only identifies the
scope of work. Can you do that, and have maybe what would that
need, a May deadline, June deadline, so we would still have enough
time to say yes we want to move forward and then meet the
August deadline of applying for the H20 money. Mr. Malesker said
yes. Councilman Snyder said my next point that I wanted to bring
up to council was even if you didn’t want to proceed with the project.
Because maybe when he comes and say, this is going to cost two
million dollars, and H20 is only 50% so you’ve got to come up with
a million, and our numbers just don’t want to work. Councilman
Allar does this identify our? Councilman Snyder said yeah, that’s
the idea. Councilman Allar said I thought you said you were going
to go out for a loan. Councilman Snyder said yeah, we could. That’s
what I’m saying, what I was getting at. Even if we decided not to
through with the project, because it was too costly, we couldn’t get
loans or the loans weren’t low interest enough or maybe we just
didn’t want to go through with the project. Steve pointed out to me
that this required to do, to do just this, within the next few years for
our MS-4 anyways so. I’m looking at as its giving us an opportunity
to move forward with our infrastructure, if we decide not to in July.
We’re one step ahead of money that we need to spend four years
down the road to make us MS 4 compliant. So this is money we need
to spend anyways, that’s what I’m getting at. Mr. Malesker said with
the storm water issues that the borough has, its needed, condition is
needed anyway. Councilman Naylor said absolutely. The secretary
said and you’re going to make sure with Gerry that this is a covered
expense under liquid fuels, I didn’t go over that whole thing. I’m
thinking its going to, but touch base with him on it. Councilman
Allar said have you contacted PENN VEST any more on the loaning
of money. Councilman Snyder said not yet, without knowing the
scope of work and having that identified, once we get to that next
step that we’re going go for the H20 grant, then the idea is to find
the other funding sources. Find the loans that are out there.
Councilman Allar said there might be a flipside to that, I’m
assuming with the H20 that we come up with the a lending source
to match. Can you think of any other loan that we don’t have to
match? I guess what I’m getting at if we can’t come up with a loan,
then we are putting a lot of money into something that’s not going
to go anywhere accept for this other requirement. Councilman Snyder
said well, that’s what I was getting at, even if we didn’t go through
with it, we are still meeting our MS 4 requirements. I mean this is
going to come to us either now or later anyways. Councilman Allar
said you are absolutely crystal clear on that, I don’t know any
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 44
municipality that have gone to this extent. Mr. Malesker said well.
Councilman Allar said they are putting down fourteen grand, this
is a small borough. Red Lion , they’re going to be spending
fifty sixty thousand. Mr. Malesker said a lot of them have already
had their condition assessments done. Councilman Naylor said
when we are going down the road, we don’t have anything. Mr.
Shearer said its getting to be a more common procedure because
a lot of municipalities across the country, its not different than
cameraing their sewer systems. Mr. Malesker said its infrastructure.
Mr. Shearer said you can’t see it, if we don’t get an handle up there,
we’re find it when it’s a big hole. Councilman Naylor said its better
off to know about it ahead of time, then you know. Councilman
Manns said for safety also, a lot of this time its fine one day and then
something happens. Mr. Shearer said when they check the system
you’re going to find out just how bad it is. Councilman Allar said
if you figure out if its expensive, do you want to do it all or do
you need to piece meal, is it worn out or does it need replaced.
You can take pictures of it, showing whats there. Councilman
Snyder said I don’t think, honestly, with DCED and the contacts
we could make within a month we could say yeah. A low interest
loan isn’t going to be a problem. Councilman Allar said yes it could
be because, we have to have a certain ready credit worthiness just
like an individual. I don’t know if we could borrow a $100,000 or
five million. I don’t know that. Our auditors could probably tell us.
Or PENN VEST could call us and send us our balance sheets and tell
us. But we don’t know, so we don’t know what we have. I’m looking
at this project of somewhere the whole system could be five million
dollars. We are looking at 2 ½ million, maybe we can only get a loan
for $150,000.00. I don’t know. We haven’t asked. Councilman Noll
said I think the first step is to find out what we have, we don’t know
what we have, what type of pipe it is. No matter what, I think its
a very useful tool and the first step. A motion was made by Councilman
Noll to direct C. S. Davidson to do the survey as long as its paid
out of liquid fuels, according the scope of work that was laid out last
month with a start date not to commence not before January 1, 2010.
Councilman Allar said you may want to ask the auditors what is our
credit worthiness. I guess they would have it. Councilman Snyder said
the first step is probably going to DCED, I know if you borrow more
than $125,000.00 you’ve got to get their approval anyways, so
they’re going to be the first step. We are going to be looking at
borrowing at least $500,000.00. Councilman Allar said the whole system
has the same age. Councilman Naylor said what they’re looking at is
if you’re looking at replacing the whole system at one time. You’re going
to do this street then another. Councilman Allar said as one package of
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 45
money one grant, we need to get credit worthiness to get matching
money. This isn’t over a ten year period, I think the spending can
be phased. I’m talking about one, one solution, every time we put
one application in, it costs us money. Councilman Snyder said that’s
exactly it. Councilman Allar said so let’s not say we’re going to do
Main Street, let’s do the whole system. Councilman Snyder said
if its in need, we need to identify, you may find out that well
we don’t know what we’re going to find out. As far as funding,
sources, one thing I was going to bring up under the secretary’s
report, its part of the budget process that we were looking at.
I was looking at possibly applying for grant for upgrading for
energy efficiency. And thinking about trying to get solar panels on
here if they were willing to pay us. See if we could generate our own
electric see what we could do and there is a grant out there that had
a deadline of December 14th. And you had to, I actually took the time
and went through all the hoops and hollers, that we are now set up
through grants.gov to be a direct grantee for the federal government.
We will be in competition of course with counties, states. You are
talking the big monies, but there also, this is where a lot of that
stimulus money went that was sitting out there. And unfortunately
I got all the approvals, I set up all the passwords so if we have to
do this H20 grant in the future. We now have DUNS numbers, we
have CCR registration. I forget half the stuff we had to sign up for.
To get registered to be able to apply for federal grants. That’s all
done. I got to the point to where I was going to download the application,
and there it said you had a 1 million dollar minimum, floor. Nothing
that we were going to put on this building we going to cost a million,
maybe $200,000.00 not over a million, so we didn’t meet the criteria.
So the nice thing about, I set up for the newsletter so on a monthly
basis they will sending out updates as far as what new grants are out
there, so there maybe infrastructure grants or storm water management
grants and since this is going to be a large magnitude we may qualify
for something like that. So that’s out there. Sandy pulled this out from
the mail, I thought it was LTAP request to go to a seminar. It appears
that it says there is no fee for this work shop, this class can be scheduled
at your facility. So they are looking at places to hold this workshop.
Minimum of ten people required. One of the things that they talk about
in the outline of the course, is storm water management, storm water
regulations, regulatory barriers and the last thing funding for storm water
planning and infrastructure improvements right throught LTAP. Mr.
Malesker said I think it was hosted at Windsor Township, its been
hosted at a couple different locations. Mr. Shearer said I haven’t been
able to go to any. Councilman Snyder said keep your ears open the next
time you see it is in York County, get Dana. The secretary said I’d
Engineer’s Report(cont.) Page 46
to attend also. Councilman Snyder said even send our engineer,
Seth, anybody can go to find out what’s available. I think there’s
options out there we just need again, little steps, keep focused
this is the scope of work. What I liked about was this particular
scope of work could serve a dual purpose because even if we
don’t go further it will meet our MS-4 requirements. A motion
was made by Councilman Noll to have C. S. Davidson do
the study of the storm water infrastructure per their proposal
last month to not begin before January 1, 2010. The motion
was seconded by Councilman Naylor. All in favor. Councilman
Snyder said motion carried. The secretary said he’s going to
talk to Gerry Wagner to make sure that it is covered by liquid
fuels. Councilman Snyder said anything else for the engineer?
Reminder Councilman Snyder asked did you receive a copy of this letter
from DEP from DEP, it’s a reminder that dam safety inspection needs
to be done by December 31, 2009. Mr. Malesker said yes.
Addendum The secretary asked if the faxed addendum to the bid needs
to Bid to be discussed. Mr. Malesker said no, no action is needed.
All the bidders acknowledged the addendum as part of their
bid.
Maintenance Report
Signs Mr. Shearer reported that street sign replacement continues
We had a question about street sign size, did verify that
with a couple of vendors and with LTAP engineers. Looking
at what is online as far as manuals. The 8 inch blank is the
minimum requirement blank. So what we’re putting up now
is the minimum appropriate size. Actually we can go a little
bit smaller on our side street, but we are keeping it the same
size so its uniform.
Leaf Mr. Shearer said on leaf pick up, they did the fourth and the
Pick Up next scheduled is November 18th. So have your leaves to
the curb on Wednesday the 18th. I didn’t put anything in there
for another date, I know we talked about that before. Trying
to get a feel from Teli, as far as what he feels its going to
be up there, whether its going to be any other dates. The
leaves are coming down real quick, everyone gets them out
this weekend, hopefully, we won’t need any other dates.
Grass Mr. Shearer said wrapping up with the grass mowing and
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 47
and weed eating.
Equipment Mr. Shearer said we started getting the equipment serviced
Service for the fall/winter. And also working on the equipment to get
out for winter maintenance.
Work Mr. Shearer said we used the work crews to deliver the comp
Crews plan surveys. I haven’t heard anything, we covered everything
we did, we ran out, some of the apartments. Councilman Allar
asked do you know how many you started with? Mr. Shearer said
I don’t remember what was in that box. Councilman Allar said
I think there was to be 450. Mr. Shearer said at the end of High
Street I don’t think we got a couple apartments out there, the
Poseys we didn’t get, and Denton Terrace we didn’t get, there
is only a couple houses up there. Councilman Allar asked
we have about 450 units? Councilman Snyder said 454 is the
amount that the sewer sends? You know when you get stuff
printed up you never get what they say. They said 450, you
probably got 436. Mr. Shearer said I didn’t actually get in to
pick them, Dan Shaw called me that morning, said he was
on his way to pick up Red Lion’s, so he picked ours up for
us.
Sheriff’s Mr. Shearer said the Sheriff’s Department finished up at the
Dept. dam. I’ve got to get some information from them, and then
get with John so can write them a really nice thank you
letter and send it to the sheriff. Saying what a wonderful
program it is. Because that is who I play to use to paint the
buildings at the park in springtime. They seemed to like
working for us and they really did a nice job.
Energy Mr. Shearer said what Sam was saying as far as energy, I’m
going to continue like I said before, I did make some contacts
and stuff as far as emails to some different companies requesting
some different information. So I got some emails back. They
basically want to see our electric bills, to get an idea of what
we’re spending, by our usage. Whether it will be feasible to do
it or not. Councilman Snyder said I was thinking with the solar
panels, we don’t generate a whole lot of electric use here but
if you put panels in the entire side of that building that gets
sun, we could probably generate more electric than what we’re
using and sell it back. Hopefully by selling it back, we off set
some of the use on the street light. That concept in reality, if
we would put panels up there, what are we going to be talking
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 48
as to what are we going to generate. So if it’s a $50,000.00
cost are we going to generate $10,000.00 of electric a year.
That’d be good if we could get the $50,000.00 out of grant
money. Then you’re generating $10,000.00, its another way
to try to generate some money here. I’m going, I’d like
to give them our electric expenses, street light, park, signal
light and building here, if we look at everything we spend
for electric total, to know, then we have a good idea of what
we can offset, or try to offset. It may be difference. Councilman
Allar said if you are looking at putting back into the grind, I
have a roof on that out building, you can use it all. You can
put all back there. Mr. Shearer said I’m seriously thinking of
it for my house. Councilman Allar said I was thinking for
my house, I was thinking about it for the borough. Councilman
Snyder said I saw that thing come from PSAB, I saw there
was extra money there, saying no one claimed it, they are sitting
on over 700 million dollars and they’re saying its there for
the giving. They are saying its strictly for municipalities and to
upgrade to fuel efficient, energy efficient ways. Well there’s
an idea. So you start going into it, you have to do this, you have
to do this, you have registered here and then when you finally
get to the end, oh you have a million dollar floor with a 75 million
dollar cap. Why didn’t you say that in the beginning? Too bad
I didn’t have enough time, let the county put in for this, then
have every municipality building in the county and let the county
put in for it. Because there you would have gotten over your
million dollars. Because this, you’re looking at a direct funding
to it. Councilman Allar asked and there’s no match? Councilman
Snyder said no match, 100% total grant. Councilman Allar said
it ends? Councilman Snyder said December 14th. Councilman
Allar said and its not something like the stimulus grant and comes
around again. Councilman Snyder said well, I guess if the money
is still there, it may come around again. But now they’re not saying
it. It’s the Department of Energy is the one that has the money.
Councilman Allar said that might be the way to do it, with the
county or with the other two boroughs. Councilman Snyder said
the only problem is, I was able to do it in a week. They said to
allow three to four weeks for registration for everything go to through. I must had about 12 hours into it this week, got everything
done in a week, I filed quick to get the registration information
back and stuff. I never heard of it before. I signed up for more
stuff than I ever even heard of . Okay anything else for maintenance?
Siren Councilman Noll asked did you ever talk to the fire department about
Maintenance Report(cont.) Page 49
the siren. Mr. Shearer said no I didn’t. Councilman Noll said
I saw that back hoe up there today.
Vacation Mr. Shearer said I’m off part of the day tomorrow and
Thursday and Friday on vacation.
Letters The secretary said letters were sent to the additional snow
For personnel right after the last meeting. No response has been
Snow received. They will not be able to touch the trucks until they
Personnel have given that information to me. Mr. Shearer said I talked
to Rick about that the other day. I have to check the box.
I forgot to say something to Scott the other day. Councilman
Snyder said keep on them.
Zoning Officer’s Report
Councilman Snyder said there was none.
Emergency Management Report
Councilman Snyder said he’s not here.
Mayor’s Report
Letter Councilman Snyder said I did have one thing from the mayor. He
to did draft a letter on behalf of borough council, he signed it the
York Area mayor on borough letterhead to Chief Gross indicating, he wasn’t
Regional happy with the police costs. Evidently Red Lion Borough, Windsor
Police Township and Dallastown are sending out similar letters and that
went to him. Hopefully he will be more mindful. Councilman Allar
asked what is the date on that? Councilman Snyder said November
6th. This is the borough’s copy. Councilman Allar said I have
copies of all the other letters.
Not Councilman Snyder said again I indicated that the mayor may not
In be in again next month as well, because his flying in from Texas.
Knier Councilman Snyder said I’ll be getting back in touch with John
to see if he was going to be sending out the letter of denial to
Mrs. Knier.
Secretary’s Report
2010 The secretary said the 2010 allocation for liquid fuels will be
Secretary’s Report(cont.) Page 50
$18772.45.
Equipment The secretary said we already discussed the equipment balance
on the yearly liquid fuels report.
Meeting The secretary said I gave out the meeting dates for 2010 to
Dates be reviewed you can let me know next month if they’re okay.
Councilman Snyder said take a look, I don’t know when
election day is. We can check with the election office. There
is formula, so many weeks after. Mr. Shearer said isn’t it
the first Tuesday after the first Monday. The secretary said
then we will have to change that to the ninth. Councilman
Snyder said everybody take a look at those meeting dates,
if there is any conflicts with the majority of people. Dave,
at one time, we use to change the meeting date in December
because there were a lot of people that hunted. Ronnie, I
hunted. Jason Reichard hunted. Councilman Naylor said
I’ll probably not be here next month, I hunt. Councilman Snyder
said so council might want to consider that.
Unfinished Business
Meeting Councilman Allar said just a reminder, you’ve got it in your minutes
Reminders there is a rail trail meeting, November 18th Wednesday, Dallastown
Fire Company, 12 to 8, that’s kind of option. The meeting you should
consider that’s going to be November 17th, Tuesday. There is going to
be a comp plan committee meeting at six which everyone can attend.
The public meeting is at seven, at the Dallastown Borough Hall. The
reason I think that you should go if possible, besides showing support
and all that stuff. You can obviously make input, but you should
look upon it as an educational thing. The comp plan is kind of
complicated. I’m not going to claim to be an expert, I’m learning as
I go. None of us has ever been through this thing so, no one really
understands any more than I do. But the process, the plan process
will be explained. The more you know about it, the more likely,what
ever input you make, will be more useful so. That is part of what
we’re trying to do here. Invite your friends and neighbors to come.
There is chance that you’ll get your voice heard. There is also going
to be another comp plan committee meeting, November 25 at
10AM also at Dallastown and that’s the day before Thanksgiving.
And again that’s going to be a committee meeting. You can come.
Councilman Snyder asked anything else for unfinished business.
New Business Page 51
Service Councilman Snyder said we have the service contract for 2010
Contract for the copier, Imageware for the copier. $212.95. Councilman
For Copier Naylor made a motion to sign service contract. The motion was
seconded by Councilman Manns. All in favor.
Financial Councilman Snyder said on the table here, you’re see we
Statement received the financial statement prepared for by the fire department
for Yoe Borough. Leave it out here for anyone to take a look
at, it has charts on there, as far as alarm data. It breaks it down
to days of week, it breaks it down to all their calls, how many,
percentages in which municipalities. A lot of information in here,
shows the percents of accidents, goes through accidents versus
fire calls. They also have a copy of their IRS form, 990 that
they had to fill out. Some of their operating expenses. And its
just chocked full of all sorts of information. Even a list of their
officers and their firefighters as well as the hours that they put
in. A lot of time went into preparing that, and I appreciate them
doing that. Along with that, I forget when I was asked by Barry,
probably in the early spring, they wanted to save some money,
instead of having an auditing firm come in, they wanted to do
like the municipalities use to have elected auditors. So he wanted
one representative from York Township, Windsor Townshp and
Yoe Borough and come in and audit their books. That’s what we
did, it was myself, Jennifer Gunnet and what is name, Silberstein
from York Township. Everything turned out to be good, ending
balance $26087.00. Actually the only thing that kept us so long,
the books were in very good order. Accounted for everything.
One of the things I suggest, the end balance of the last statement,
we were $115.00 off. And we looked and looked and looked, for
how we found it, evidently Paul Knepper is holding a check from
them from back in March. I told Mr. Silberstein, I said you go
and harass Paul Knepper as to why you spent so much time
auditing these books. He got a big chuckle out of that. They
wanted him down here, because he has been critical as to why
we spend as much money as we do in the fire department. He
was very impressed, with, he even said, your books were in
much better shape than what I expected. So. Here is our copy
of it. We did have some recommendations for them. Use of
Quicken for bookkeeping, because they still use the old ledger
books. More time consuming. Run two tapes for deposits attaching
one to the deposit slip. That was one thing that we couldn’t verify.
They had these slips, that they run out to make one deposit, the
New Business(cont.) Page 52
deposit maybe sixteen thousand dollars. Well yeah, the $16,000.00
shows up in the book, but there is no one to say what made up
the $16,000.00, to make sure that, that figure is right. What Jenny
said, that these tapes are for, that breaks down, you have fifty checks
that totaled and $3000.00, you have cash of this and you may have
had whatever. Since you only have one tape, didn’t have it go with
the deposit slips. Maintain a prudent balance in the general account,
there were times that they got down to a couple hundred bucks in
there. We think that they should keep a little bit more in there. So
they were the only recommendations that we had.
Sewer Councilman Snyder said we also received the notices from the sewer
Authority authority that weren’t paid. That is now on file. Councilman Manns
Notice asked if you noticed the names on that. Councilman Snyder said I’m
hoping that it was a situation that it was missed or because of getting
paid time frame.
Notice Councilman Snyder said we did receive notice from Ron Miller that
on November 21st that he’s holding an open house from 9AM until
4PM down at his district office at the Susquehanna Trail. Light
refreshments will be served.
Municipal Councilman Noll said two things, first of all, the municipal
Managers managers meeting, would anyone have a problem with Yoe
Meeting would volunteer to host one next year. My thinking would
be taking them up to the park. You’re probably talking a
couple bucks for lunch. Councilman Snyder said what
are you talking about for lunch, catered. Order them from
Weis. You go you know what to expect. Councilman Noll said
usually they have a sandwich some type of cookie or
something, a salad. Does anyone have a problem with that?
Spring Councilman Noll asked do we want to do anything in the spring,
Dedication with the floppy scissors something to think about. We may be
able with the municipality have that be our yard sale weekend.
Just a thought. Get some interest in Yoe Borough. Councilman
Snyder said I don’t have a problem, I had the plaque made up
for Kinsley. I’m sure you can easily get someone from the
county, when you are looking at the state, that’s a lot harder
to get but. Even just to recognize, Kinsley, Legend. They’re
awesome with what their doing. Councilman Noll said just
a thought, evening, Saturday event. Right before they open.
Councilman Noll said when is the first rental. The secretary
said usually after May 15th, she can get one at the end of
New Business(cont.) Page 53
April. Councilman Noll said maybe the first weekend in May.
We don’t have decide that tonight. Councilman Snyder said
coordinate that manager’s meeting at the same time. There is
a consensus.
Payment of Bills
Councilman Snyder said there are some additional bills: Met Ed:
$26.18, $73.45, and $62.73. A motion was made by Councilman Howett with
the additional bills to pay the bills along with the listed bills. The motion was
seconded by Councilman Noll. All in favor.
Adjournment
Councilman Howett made a motion to adjourn the meeting at
10:34 PM. The motion was seconded by Councilman Snyder. All in favor.
